3rd street question - split queens

[eh923]

Forgive me for not having more detail. This is a B&M 5/10 hand from a few days ago, and I didn't have a notebook.

The game is loose, with at least 4 seeing the bring-in each. 4 of the players are regulars who know each other. There's 1 solid player, and 1 extreme calling station. The rest are average.

I'm in seat 3 w/ Q6Q, no two-flush and both q's and 6's are live.

Seat 4 brings in. Seat 5 has an A, which is the only upcard higher than mine. Seat 5 completes, and 3 other players call, including the solid player. I just call the bring-in. I opt not to complete to $5 since I feel that (a) seat 5 won't reraise and (b) nobody will fold for $3 more. Of course, I could be wrong!

Question 1 - Is calling correct? If so, are the reasons I gave good ones?

Question 2 - Should I consider laying this down since I might be behind, and am facing a large multi-way pot with a poor kicker, and no two-flush?

4th street - Nobody pairs their door card. Nobody has 2 of the same suit. Nobody gets a connector to their door card. No A's or K's come. Seat 5 (with Ax exposed) leads out, all call to me. I call, deciding to pop 5th street if nobody gets a scary board. Seat 4 folds. 5 players see 5th street.

Question 3 - Again, is calling better than raising?

5th street - Seat 7 pairs his 4th street card. Rest of the cards are uneventful. Axx leads out, 3 call, I raise, all call.

6th street - Uneventful cards. Checked to me, I bet, all call.

Question 4 - Should I take a free card? I can't imagine that I'm ahead, and I could be looking at a 2-outer. The pot is very large, so I didn't really expect anyone to fold. I did think that I might be able to get a free showdown.

7th street - I make queens up. Checked around to solid player who bets. I call, 2 call, 1 folds.

Question 5 - Did I miss a raise here? Afterwards, I thought so. If the solid player was betting light, my raise my knock out a hand like aces up, upping my chance to win this hand.

Anyway, the solid player (who was 2 seats to my right) made a straight on the river. Everyone else showed, and couldn't beat my queens up...so I got the red ribbon of honor.

Any comments are appreciated! I'm particularly interested in comments about 3rd street.

[jedi]

I'm a new player, so I'd like to get feedback on what I would have done in your shoes.

I would have raised on 3rd street, and basically bet/raised the entire way until getting played back. I think I'm being a little too aggressive, and want to know what the general rule of thumb is in these types of situations.

Experts, please respond! I'm probably going to get Roy West's 7card stud book, or 7CSFAP this week. Hopefully it'll teach me some basics.

[eh923]

Seat 4 brings in. Seat 5 has an A, which is the only upcard higher than mine. Seat 5 completes

I meant to say that Seat 5 just called the bring-in. She didn't complete it!!!

[eh923]

I was hoping to be able to be aggressive on this hand. However, I'm not sure that it would've been productive. My position to the lead hand (assuming she didn't fold to my raise...which she wouldn't have) was bad, particularly since the person I most wanted to knock out was between us. Not only that, but the pot would be very large, giving anyone with even a hint of a hand reason to chase. I really didn't want that!

I'm relatively new to stud, and I started with 7CSFAP. I've also heard good things about Roy West's book. I don't think you'd go wrong with either one...although I might play a little loose since I started w/ 7CSFAP.

[Andy B]

I definitely recommend 7CS4AP over Roy West.

[Andy B]

You won't get people out by completing on third, but you do get more money in with what is more than likely the best hand. I will often limp in this spot, though. It gives you a bit of deception, and it keeps the pot small which makes it more likely that you'll be able to buy it later on, and it also makes it easy to get away from the hand if things go badly on later streets. Still, you are giving up EV for this round, and you may not be able to make that up later in the hand. You should in no way, shape, or form consider folding this hand for two lousy dollars on third street.

On fourth, I'd call because it's reasonably likely that you have the best hand, and you're not going to get anyone out by raising. You aren't going to get anyone out by raising fifth street, either, so your gameplan is a bit flawed, I think.

On fifth, I take it the open pair checked before the Ace bet? When I think of someone "leading," I think of someone betting when first to act. I wouldn't have raised. It is increasingly unlikely that you have the best hand, and you're not going to get anyone to fold.

Yes, you should have taken the free card on sixth. You're going to have to show down the best hand, and I don't think you have it at this point.

Call the river. You're probably beaten, but the pot is big.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely recommend 7CS4AP over Roy West.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh.... Well, if I had gotten this message before hitting the bookstore tonight, that would be what I'd have. Oh well. Hopefully Roy will help me enough. If not, eBay, here I come!

I don't really consider myself and "Advanced Player" when it comes to Stud though. I've played home games and stuff and tend to play tight (so I think). Will the 2+2 book be okay for me?

[eh923]

A friend who was at the B&M with me pointed out the error in my post about the upcards on 5th street. Indeed Seat 7 couldn't have paired, but his cards caught my attention. Perhaps it was the second of his door card's suit...or maybe a gapped 3-straight. It definitely wasn't a pair. So on 5th, the Axx did lead, it called around, and I raised. I guess my real problem was WHY I raised. I was hoping to knock one or more people out...but the pot was too big.

You're right about the free card on 6th. The pot's too big for anyone too fold, and betting my Q's couldn't possibly be +EV with 4 opponents.

[timmer]

Dont fret Roy Wests 42 lessons is also a very good book that you can learn a bunch from.

The 2+2 authors and devoted followers Poo Poo it because it isnt always "correct" in their veiw and perhaps it is not in a few minor cases. However it is a clearly written understandable hand by hand street by street tome' that will give you enough information to best the low limit players you will likely be facing. Mr West takes into account the high casino rake and so his recomendations are somewhat scewed towards that end.

the logical progreesion, as I see it, in stud books is.

Precy-7 card stud the waiting game
West- 7 Card Stud 42 Lessons
Zee (Sklanski Malmuth)- SCSFAP

As companions to 7 card stud 42 lessons are MCU's 11 Days to 7 Stud success and professional 7 stud report are also well worth a read.

As a companion to SCSFAP I would recommend Seven Card Stud Poker by Konstantin Othmer

these can all be had at conjelco.com

Just my few cents

timmer

[timmer]

Well, I read most of the replys and agree with the recomendations in most of them.

Im likley folding unimproved Q's on fifth here rather than placing a additional 3 large bets in the pot with what could very likely be 3rd best and fading hand.

I would like to take a different look at third though.

Sure you have an OK split pair and a bad kicker and you are on the end. You will likely remain near the end unless some one improves. If you improve you will likely be first and can likely get a check raise in. You didnt describe the structure so we wont address those issues But I am assuming a typical structure for 5/10 B&M.

This hand is a fair example for experiencing the problems associated with the gap concept. Because Conventional wisdom tells you just to call with the best hand here.

On the other hand a raise on third can accomplish many things. It gets abunch of money in the pot and out of the stacks of some players with weak hands.

You arent really that concerned with making it correct for the good draws to continue as they will continue correctly any way because of the games texture. I want them and the weak draws to be put to additional expence. Money pressure is a very real thing which you will learn and experiance as you move up through the limits.

You establish your self as a potential force to be reckoned with in the hand and the game.

<start OB Zen philosophy lesson>

The individual actions taken by each player exist with in the streets, the streets within the hand. The hand with in the round, and the round with in the sitting. The sitting exists with in the game type and opponents you are facing in it. Are you seeing the universal laws at work here here ?? These Parts are all interconnected and exist as one whole. You are part of this whole and operate within and help to define it. Thus you must look at the big picture as well as all its individual parts, and your influance on them all.

Or you could just sit there check overcalling and think, "Hmmmmm Doughnuts.."

Anyway , One other advantage to raising is that you get more people to pay the rake percentage early. Which should be a major consideration in a LL B&M game. Also a raise might help you with the gap concept which has you handcuffed into check overcalling here. ( I'm noy saying check overcalling isnt correct in this or many other cases. I just dont like to do alot of it).


Raising also can set up a scare card play which if it happens likely wont win the pot for you but can contribute dead money to the pot. Also raising in conjuction with scare cards (or conversly with out scare cards) may give you an opportunity to protect your hand later.

So taking all things into account there is a pretty good argument for a raise on third in this instance. Eventhough at first glance calling might be the excepted way of playing it here.

Just my few cents

timmer