88 HU Hand...OK Preflop? ATM Postflop?

DerFleischmeister · #1 08-28-2004, 05:56 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

MP3 ($17.80)
CO ($33.53)
Button ($35)
SB ($31.90)
BB ($29.20)
DerFleisch ($91.37)
UTG+1 ($23.50)
MP1 ($93.35)
MP2 ($28.65)

Preflop: DerFleisch is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
DerFleisch calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO raises to $3, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, DerFleisch raises to $9, CO calls $6.

My thinking here with the limp-reraise was this: The CO had been making A TON of raises preflop, always to $3, and playing very passively postflop. I had never seen any of his showdowns, as he would often check/fold on the flop or the turn, even with a PFR. I limp UTG with 88 on a LP (other than the CO) table, looking to do the "no set, no bet" thing. The betting gets back around to me, leaving myself heads-up with this LAG preflop/TP postflop player. So, I pop him for a reraise, representing a considerably higher PP than I actually had. Should he call the reraise, I'm thinking overcards to my 8s, which leaves me a 53/47 favorite preflop, and maybe setting up being able to bet him out postflop, even if he does hit one of his overcards.

Flop: ($18.75) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

The only scare card is the King...let's see how my standard pot-bet works.

DerFleisch bets $19, CO raises to $24.53 (All-In), DerFleisch calls $5.53.

Being pot-committed, I make the call. If there's a lot more money behind his raise, I'm folding.

Turn: ($67.81) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($67.81) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $67.81
Main Pot: $67.81, between CO and DerFleisch. > Pot won by CO ($67.81).

Results in white below: 
DerFleisch shows 8h 8s (two pair, kings and eights).
CO shows Jh Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: CO wins $67.81. 

Well, that didn't work out right. Was this just an attempted play that didn't work out, or did I really stink up the joint with this play? Again, this was specific reads on a player...a solid player, I fold preflop.

Sandstone · #2 08-28-2004, 07:11 PM

This is pretty terrible.

"No set no bet" means you want to see the flop cheap. Popping it up to $9 isn't going to accomplish that.

You're trying to make a move on this guy, but why and for what? The cards you have aren't that great, and you don't even have position. You're left risking a ton of money to win not a lot.

As for the flop bet, if you're going to be leaving yourself with such a small amount, you should just go ahead and push it all-in right off the bat.

Wayfare · #3 08-28-2004, 07:37 PM

Terrible.

I don't know what you were thinking...if you are going to take this line just push preflop.

DerFleischmeister · #4 08-28-2004, 07:38 PM

"No Set, No Bet" (see the flop for cheap) was my INITIAL thought, expecting many LP callers. The play of the hand, and the heads-up against a certain player, changed my strategy midstream.

On the flop, do you think a smaller, non-pot committing (say, $6) bet would be better, giving me an opportunity to get out of the hand if raised All-In? I had been pot-betting everything I had bet on the flop to that point, from TPGK to nut flush draws to middle set, the whole session...a smaller bet might have looked funny.

Wayfare · #5 08-28-2004, 07:41 PM

You realize the limp reraise is done with AA/KK because you need position for almost every other hand right? When you make this huge a pot preflop you are going to be pushing on the flop. If you think this is a good way to play it, then keep doing it.

I think you give any opponent an easy decision for all his money. If he has top pair he will call. If he doesn't he will probably fold. If you can beat top pair or beat his kicker, you will win. If you can't, you will double him through. This is not the optimal way to play 88 at this table.

DerFleischmeister · #6 08-28-2004, 07:44 PM

Yes, I realize the AA/KK limp-reraise, and have used it many times on aggressive tables, with great success. That is what I was representing...an AA or KK to an out-of-line player. On this passive of a table, I would just raise those hands, and if reraised by this LAG, push the AA, and call the KK, following with a flop push if no Ace or heavily coordinated board hit.

Really...given the player in question, was I RERALLY that far out of line preflop? I realize the amount of the bet postflop was bad, now.

DerFleischmeister · #7 08-28-2004, 08:29 PM

I guess, deep down, I wanted to be told what a terrible play this was, and y'all definitely obliged there. Thanks.

But, keeping in mind this is short-stacked PP $25NL, and not PS 3/6, where people don't get out of line too much, do I REALLY have to wait for AA or KK to knock a LAG back in line? Or do I just wait for position?

I have read the Ciaffone/Reuben book. They have a great discussion of general concepts of playing "big-bet poker", but no real specifics are mentioned. There are no starting hand groups, a la HPFAP.

What would be a good source of something specific for starting hands?

SmileyEH · #8 08-28-2004, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would be a good source of something specific for starting hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

No limit is far too situational to ever categorize starting hands ala the groups in HPFAP. There are situations where I fold AK without a second thought preflop, yet I've limp reraised AJo. In late position with 100 big blinds in front its going to take a lot to make me fold suited connecters, and lets not even talk about pocket twos.

Keep reading Reuben/Ciaffone, knowing what hands to play and in what situations will come.

-SmileyEH