3/6 6 max hand

[cornell2005]

this hand is a little played out for a couple of people as we talked about it for a good bit, but someone asked me to post so i will.

600 nl 6 handed. i have 1200 and guy in this hand has 500. i have KK utg+1 or something. i raise to 20, guy behind calls me. flop 999. i bet 30 he calls. turn A. I check he bets small, 35

it obviously comes down to a check/call then lead river line or a bet turn line. go

a side question is if you were the villin, with what hands do you think leading out the turn for 35 if the best play?

[1800GAMBLER]

As i said in the chat room, i have no problems with giving all the lower pocket pairs the opportunity to fold the turn.

It's very very player dependant though. I think you could make a player type up for each line.

[turnipmonster]

I feel that check/call turn then lead the river is best against a lot of players, but it depends on how easily you're going to get blown off your hand and how likely the guy is to raise you. not very likely, so really it comes down to will he bet more with worse hands or will he call more with worse hands? I'm sure you guys talked about this already though. want to summarize for us IRC challenged?

--turnipmonster

[TStoneMBD]

i dont understand the reasoning here, maybe you guys can go into further depth for me. to me i think you should check call the turn and the river because only an ace is going to call you at this point, or a hand like pocket queens. isnt it better to give someone the opportunity to try and bluff you off your hand instead of allowing someone to fold? If you check-call the turn and bet the river an ace is going to raise you in which case you fold, but a smaller pocket pair wont call. is your line of thinking that you lead out small on the river so that you save money by not having to call a large bet instead?

[doubleas]

How about a small check-raise on the turn? If you're called or raised, you can be done with the hand. Don't see too much value in looking for 2 outs on the river by check/calling. I'd do the same with an ace. I don't like the stop and go here if I had an ace because there would be less money in the pot in the end. The small check-raise will cost you the same as the stop and go, plus check-raises show more strength in my mind.

[theBruiser500]

i like calling the turn and leading out on the river. it lets you bet when you want to bet your hand, not when your opponent wants to bet his hand. doubt you'll get bluff raised ever with most opponents (if your opponent is capable then i like checking).

[Ulysses]

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I feel that check/call turn then lead the river is best against a lot of players

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That's what I said.

[turnipmonster]

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i dont understand the reasoning here, maybe you guys can go into further depth for me.

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my reasoning is you are inducing a bluff (or a value bet from a worse hand) on the turn, but on the river those same hands will check behind, but generally would have paid off a bet. opponent will have a hard time raising you with a worse hand.

--turnipmonster

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont understand the reasoning here, maybe you guys can go into further depth for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

my reasoning is you are inducing a bluff (or a value bet from a worse hand) on the turn, but on the river those same hands will check behind, but generally would have paid off a bet. opponent will have a hard time raising you with a worse hand.

--turnipmonster

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yea me too. put another way, alot of hands will correctly small bet the turn. this is the part i didnt understand when i asked eldiablo about the hand. i couldnt come up with a situation where a guy would small bet here. but it really makes alot of sense for him to do this with a huge range of hands. if i check call then check the river, he gets to take the pot with an easy bluff. if i check call then bet the river, he safely lays down. it makes clear for him when he should bluff and when he shouldnt. if he checks behind the turn, he has little chance of taking down the pot without a showdown.

but anyways, check/call then lead just gets more value vs a wider range of players, and deters a bluff from another range of players. a decent amount of pocket pairs will make a crying call on the river with the full house. when you add the turn bet plus this river call, its probably more value on average than if you bet/bet. perhaps more importantly, its much easier for him to bluff raise the turn if i bet than to bluff raise the river for alot of reasons.

[1800GAMBLER]

Maybe it's just me. But how the hell does 88 TT etc find a call on the river on a 999Ax board against a preflop raiser!?