Raising, then missing the flop

[QuikSand]

I guess I’d start this with something in the neighborhood of “long time, first time…”

Short background: I’m trying to work my way up to play into middle limit games. I’ve had pretty good results playing lower limits, and generally feel comfortable playing at the next level. I have a pretty regular “near home game” offering a $7.50/$15 “pink game,” as well as an occasional trek to Borgata for either $6/$12 or $10/20.


I wanted to offer a post here, as I have frequently been impressed with the thought that forum members put into their comments. I’m not really hopelessly lost with my question here – but I think I’d benefit from getting some feedback.

The situation where I feel I have a meaningful “leak” is when I raise pre-flop, but receive a bad flop. I am a fairly liberal pre-flop raiser, and find myself in this situation pretty regularly – either sitting on a flop with two overcards in hand, or with a card on the table higher than my pocket pair. I’m sure this has been discussed here already in a number of ways… I have done some searching, but wouldn’t mind if someone else can help point me elsewhere to do my own digging.

With that – here are a couple of hands that I recall from live games recently – I’ll tall you what I did, and would welcome comments or observations.

- - -

Hand #1 – $10/$20 game at the Borgata. I have not played at the table long enough to have a very good read on the players. I am in middle position, with JJ. With one limper from UTG+1, I raise. I end up with three callers, including the big blind and the initial limper.

Flop comes: 4 8 A, rainbow

Limper checks, and it’s to me. I suspect this is a “classic” situation of a pretty bad flop – I have to think that it’s pretty likely that there’s an ace out there. I have a pretty high regard for claiming the “lead” in a hand, so I bet out here. I get calls from the later position player and the initial limper, after the BB folds.

Turn brings: 4 8 A . . . 9

Here, I don’t have any real fears, other than the ace. There’s no obvious draw to a straight or flush, and I judge it unlikely that there’s a better pair out there – so it’s about the ace. I recognize that the many times I raise with AK or AQ and get called down by a weaker ace it’s money for me – but I generally get to this point and start to fear that I’m up against that same player. I feel as though checking the turn (which I at least considered here), intending to call down if the later player bets, is tantamount to conceding the hand to any ace. In reality, I bet out again, and got called by both players again.

River brings: 4 8 A. . .9. . .Q

Now, there are two overcards to my pair of Jacks, but it seems far-fetched to me that the Q could have put anyone past me (though I suppose that Q8s or even KQ is possible) – so I still feel like it’s me against the ace(s). It’s checked to me, I have largely the same decision as I did on the turn – I decide to check here, and the final player checks as well.

Showdown:
UTG+1 player has A3s
I show my JJ
Later position has AT, and takes the pot.


This is a pretty standard example of my play – I will almost always bet out on the flop after raising pre-flop, and even when I don’t like what I’m seeing, I back it up with a bet on the turn. If I’ve been called all the way down, I generally lay off the river bet, but will call a bet there (I would have called in the case above, had the third player bet).

So, I guess there are several layers to my questioning:

-In a case like this, am I right to almost always bet the flop? Any particular situation when it doesn’t make sense to do so? Would a checkraise be better sometimes?

-On the turn, after my first bet gets called and I’m putting at least one opponent on an ace he won’t let go of… am I right to still bet? Or should I check and call here? Check and fold?

-How should the presence of potential drawing setups change this? What if the flop were 8-9-A instead? Or if it were two to a suit?


Hand #2 – $6/$12 game at the Borgata. After a rough session at $10/$20, I started my next day at $6/$12. After playing a while, I found myself in the inverse situation to the above. I am in late position with AKo, and with three limpers ahead of me, I raise. The big blind and the three early limpers all stay in.

Flop comes: 3 8 T, two spades

It’s checked to me, I bet out with my two overcards (neither a spade), and get three callers (all but the player on my immediate right). One of these players is on my “chaser” list, but the other two seem to be pretty reasonable players –I’m inclined to give them something.

Turn comes: 3 8 T. . .5 (still only two spades)

I figure the five didn’t help anyone, and when it is again checked to me, I can bet out – trying to shake off a flush or straight draw. All three players call my bet, however, so four players see the river:

River brings: 3 8 T. . .5. . .7 (no flush)

The flush missed, but it’s possible that a straight got there. It is again checked to me… I can’t see how anyone made a real hand here, but I don’t think anyone with a busted draw is likely to call my bet anyway. With only one player acting behind me, I decide to check – he bets the river, the first two players fold, and I make a crying call to see his JTs, which beats me with a pair of tens to my ace high.

I look back, and don’t feel like I could have done much differently here – I’m guessing that the first two players were chasing with draw hands of some sort (or perhaps eights?) which missed and were worthless at the end. I feel that if I had bet the river, the pair of tens would have to call (probably not raise) and I’d have ended up in the same spot. My essential conclusion is that such is life with big slick – it obviously isn’t a made hand, and it won’t get there every time.

My questions are basically the same here:

-Do the bets on the flop and turn make sense? In this case, with the player behind me flopping top pair, I think a check only would have served to give him the lead, and put me in a tough calling situation. Had I done so, I think I could have called the flop bet, and then probably folded on the turn (assuming he leads with another bet on the turn)- saving me two big bets, it turns out.

-Was there an opportunity for me to exert some more power than I did here, in an attempt to represent a big enough hand to scare off the top pair? Perhaps a checkraise on the flop?

-Does the presence of draws, and eventually likely busted draws, make a difference here?


Thanks in advance for any comments – whether specific to my examples above, general advice on this sort of situation, or links to threads where I can find some of the same.

[onegymrat]

Hi Quiksand,

Welcome to the forum.

In your loose games that you described, I can only say to you what I say to a lone opponent when they are contemplating a call, "No shame in folding."

[Steve Giufre]

Deciding when to fire again on the turn with an unimproved hand after a preflop raise is one of the tougher decisions in hold em.

Hand 1- I check here a lot more than most other players. With a flop like A 8 4 with no flush draw, I wouldnt like the fact that I got two callers. Unless they are totally unreasonable players, one of them will have an ace a good majority of the time. Something to keep in mind is that it is probably more correct to bet something like 99 here than it is kk because of the number of overcards that might harm your hand if you are in the lead. Also, how likely are your opponents to bet a worse hand behind you if you check? All things considered, I would probably check the turn, and them fold is a straight forward player bet behind me. In a bigger game agaist trickier opponents, you might have to take a different line.

Hand 2- This one is easier, IMO. You are in a five way pot here. Even though the board is somewhat ragged, I dont see you winning this one unimproved. Agaist one flop caller it's an easy turn bet, agaist two flop callers it becomes a lot closer between a bet and check. But in this situation I would probably take the free card, although since the pot is big, I guess betting isnt entirely horrible. Anyhow, I think a check is best here.

One thing to keep in mind when you are out of position after a preflop raise, and have missed a flop is, how likely your opponent to clearly represent his hand if you check to him on the turn. For example, if you raise with AQ, and get one button caller, and the flop comes J 5 2, you bet and he calls, you probably wont love your hand, but you wont want to give him a free one on the turn either. So say a brick falls, the things you should be asking yourslef are, is he the type of player to call the flop with ace any, or a hand like K10, hoping to pick up a draw? Or would he float it completely hoping to take it away from you with a bet or a raise on the turn? If you check to him, will he only bet when he is ahead, or might he try to take it away? If he is the type that will only bet when he is ahead, you should check, because the information you gain is so valuable it is worth risking giving a free card when you are ahead. But if he will mix it up and wont clearly represent his hand for you on the turn, then you should probably bet, especially if he doesnt need all that much to call your flop bet.

It's also worth mentioning you should very rarely be pushing a lot of these no pair hands multiway, especially in loose games like the ones you are describing. You shouldnt be auto betting the flop, just because you came in with a raise. You'll probably be a lot more comfortable checking some of these flops, and saving the best when you are behind.

Sorry this post is such a mess, but there are a lot of different things you have to think about when deceding whether or not to fire again on the turn. I dont think anybody could really get into everything that goes into it in one post, especially since so many of these decisions are really difficult and very player dependant.

[nykenny]

hand #1

[ QUOTE ]
-In a case like this, am I right to almost always bet the flop? Any particular situation when it doesn’t make sense to do so? Would a checkraise be better sometimes?


[/ QUOTE ]

no, you need to learn to change gears. with many people taking 2 bets before flop, it's VERY VERY likely Ace is out there. so check and see what happens. but betting is OK if you are in fairly late position or if you want to call one bet anyway (for whatever reason).

[ QUOTE ]
-On the turn, after my first bet gets called and I’m putting at least one opponent on an ace he won’t let go of… am I right to still bet? Or should I check and call here? Check and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

firing again with an under pair is not a good idea in general when there are still many players in the pot. you should check. better yet, look at the person who checked, and ask "YOU CHECK?!?!!??", and check too. this way the player behind you might be too confused to bet his Ace, thus giving you a free card [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[ QUOTE ]
-How should the presence of potential drawing setups change this? What if the flop were 8-9-A instead? Or if it were two to a suit?


[/ QUOTE ]

the less draws on board the more you should be concerned about their calling.

Kenny

[SA125]

FWIW - That's an honest and intelligent first post. Good job. More than I can say for myself and some others here. You obviously have a pretty good idea how to play the game.

On to the hands. I'd say two things. One is the obvious. In multi-way pots, JJ can go from great to 22 pretty quick.

Second is game or player dependent. From what I hear about Borgata, it's pretty loose. If that's the case, nothing wrong with checking it down with overcards or missed flops. The small A's aren't firing at the pot, but they aren't folding either. Take a free card to your likely 2 outer. And AK is great PF but not so great when you get 4 callers and no A or K by the turn.

[QuikSand]

Thanks for the feedback. I think I've been too stubborn with good opening hands, and when I sense that I've just missed (especially against multiple opponents) I need to do more folding.

It's funny how my strategy had seemed right to me when writing, but when reading the responses here, I'm immediately slapping my head and saying "of course you lay down those jacks you clown!"

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

You rarely can bully four or five people out of a raised pot in limit poker with one bet. A bet on the flop might be ok in both hands but you might want to take a free turn card and see if you improve and adjust accordingly.

For situations like you describe, I would reccomend Ciaffone and Brier's book "Middle Limit Hold 'Em". It gives countless examples of situations like yours and teaches prudent decisions on when to push and when to back off. Though they may not always be optimal, certainly by this boards standards, especially in terms of aggression recomended, it will save you from getting too out of line while you are improving hand reading skills that are crucial to (recognizing and) pushing slight edges.

HEPFAP is also a must. It has a sesction that specifically tells how to play Jacks in the situation you describe.

PT