The Semi-Steal

[uw_madtown]

I know the consensus around here is very, very anti-min raise.

I agree for the most part, but I've found the min-raise to be very effective in one particular situation. When I'm in a blind-steal position at a final table or a 1-table SNG, and the blinds are fairly high compared to the stacks, I'll min-raise in two cases.

1) I have a strong hand (AA, KK, AK, QQ) and the Big Blind is a small stack -- 3-5 big blinds. A lot of times, they'll be more likely to come over the top of you all-in with a mediocre hand, when they'd fold with a raise putting them all-in.

2) The "Semi-Steal" -- when I've got a good, but not great hand that I don't mind seeing the flop in position. This is a lot of offsuit and pocket pair type hands - AQ, AJ, 77-99. If one of the blinds comes back over the top of me, I can very easily fold the hand. If they fold, then it's a successful steal. And many times, they'll call the raise to see a flop, and the fold to a good bet on the flop.


Am I just asking for trouble doing this? Is this a terrible habit that I should break myself of? I don't use this as a main blind-steal method... it's just another way I mix up my play.

- UW

[SevenStuda]

I don't think you can aford to get away from a play back at you with a marginal hand in the late stages of sng's.

-Dimitri

[gergery]

One of the principles that Fossilman likes is “Calibrate your raises down to the minimum needed to get others to fold, so that you are risking the minimum amount of chips if you are played back at on a hand you want to give up”

That point is generally accepted to be around 4xBB as a loose standard. It often goes up very early in a tourney, but comes down to 3xbb or 2.5xbb in the middle of tourneys. But it can come down to only 2xbb at times also.

Personally, I’ve found when blinds are big in relation to stacks, that the minraise can become the point at which others are willing to fold, making it the correct play at that table. I’ve found for example headsup in SNGs that the minraise gets people to fold a lot, so I don’t need to go allin on those hands.

I’ll also modify point 2 above: I like playing those hands for minraise out of position too. I want a good shot at stealing, but can play with a decent flop or vs. the right opponent with those hands as well.

So to answer your question: If you’re getting too many calls that you don’t want, then the minraise is too small.

[MLG]

you are leaking information, and a good player will pick up on it. if you are minraising with hands you are looking to release, players will pick up on that and start firing back at you with nothing. also minraising with QQ is very dangerous as it gives the BB the right odds to call with just a singular A or K. Late in a tourney when you are in late position with a hand like AQ I think you are ok with taking the blinds, and if you minraise and a short stack comes over you you have to at least consider calling (even more so with 99). So, you haven't persuaded me, but I like to be told I'm wrong so keep trying.

[mscott2374]

[ QUOTE ]

Am I just asking for trouble doing this? Is this a terrible habit that I should break myself of? I don't use this as a main blind-steal method... it's just another way I mix up my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO the best way to mix up your play is to raise the same amount each time regardless of what your hand is, otherwise an observant opponent will pick up on what each size of raise means [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[DonT77]

In addition to gergery's points here, I'll add that I've read here and experienced myself that PFR sizes can also be dependent on position. For example a 2xBB PFR from UTG is more respected than a 2xBB PFR from the Button. You might be able to steal with 2xBB from UTG, whereas to make the steal from the Button you might have to go 3.5xBB or something. Of course you are more likely to be called or re-raised when raising from EP than LP, but you are risking less chips - so it kind of balances out.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Am I just asking for trouble doing this? Is this a terrible habit that I should break myself of? I don't use this as a main blind-steal method... it's just another way I mix up my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO the best way to mix up your play is to raise the same amount each time regardless of what your hand is, otherwise an observant opponent will pick up on what each size of raise means [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's sort of my point -- I don't decide on a raise based on my hand alone. Position, chip stacks, and previous plays all play in. If I've raised 3xBB with AK previously, then I may min-raise on the Button with a short-stack in the blinds. Players will often interpret this as a steal -- I've seen people push with Ax, Kx, and any two face cards here, and even worse. I'm all too happy to call. The key is that I have to have a large stack (12BB or so) and they must be short stacked (2-4BB). I'm all too happy to call their all in OR steal the blinds -- and I think a min-raise is more likely to get their chips into the middle with a lesser hand.

I'll try to come up with some examples from my hand histories, and elaborate on this idea. I will clarify that this is a play to be used VERY sparingly, or else people will pick up on it. Anyway, I'm still not very sure of the play in theory, which is why I want to elaborate my thinking and see what the greater 2+2 mind thinks of it.

- UW

[DonT77]

I don't qualify as a greater mind, but I think your theory has some merit and I've used it myself mostly against middle to weaker players both PF and ATF.

As long as you are conscious of what messages your bets are giving off, I personally don't see anything wrong with varying your bet sizes provided that you change things up frequently. For example, sometimes I might be on draw ATF in EP against several limpers so I don't want to put a lot more money into the pot just yet, and I don't want to try to bluff 3 or more opponents with a pot sized bet - so I might put out a small bet just to try to prevent somebody from making a bigger bet. Now, if they raise me a lot, I'm done, but if they call me or double my bet - I'm seeing the next card (You'd be surprised how much a small bet slows down some people at the smaller buy-ins.) If I showdown then my opponents figure that I make small bets when I'm on draw.

The next time I flop a monster and put out the weak lead again; my opponents are thinking that I'm on draw again or that I'm trying to buy the pot for cheap, so this time somebody comes over the top.

Then the next hand I might flop two pair, and I'll make a pot sized bet and they'll be thinking - well this guy only bets small when he has it, so this is an obvious bluff...

The next hand I have nothing, but I make a pot sized bet - so everybody folds...

It's kind of like tennis, you keep your opponent running as much as possible. I'd be interested to hear if anybody else plays this style occasionally.

[betgo]

I don't think the general approach is to make a miniraise with a hand you are willing to dump to a reraise. You could make a miniraise with a hand like a medium to big auited connector where you don't mind seeing a flop or multiway action. If you also make miniraises with big pairs and mix it up a bit what hands you make what kind of raise with, it will be hard for your opponents to derive much useful information from the size of your raise.

I prefer 3xBB to put some pressure on my opponents. A miniraise is going to frequently be called by the BB. I might make a miniraise from early position at a loose aggressive table or if I am short-stacked and I want to avoid being pot-committed.

[fatduck]

You will like this strategy until the 20th time someone flops a trash two pair on your premium hand and you think to yourself "he's just showing strength because I made such a small raise preflop, lol I have him trapped"