Value-Raising?

Tru · #1 08-16-2004, 12:56 PM

I've been playing Shorthanded on Empire for a few months now and lurking on two plus two for awhile. I've especially appreciated posts from Schneids, Tosh, Nemesis, and Stripsqueeze. This hand is from a particularly loose table. I chose to raise preflop because I hadn't entered a hand in awhile and I've decided that I really like the school of raise or fold. If I'm drawing to the nut-flush, is a value-raise warranted? Please be as hard on me as possible.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, CO calls, Button caps, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (18 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (24 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero folds, MP calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 28 BB

fyodor · #2 08-16-2004, 01:12 PM

I don't care how long I've been without a hand. UTG I muck that quicker than a cat on meth.

After that you played fine.

Zele · #3 08-16-2004, 01:19 PM

I like your play on the flop. Once you have all those players in there, you definitely want to value raise with a nut draw.

On the turn, consider raising. The pot is so darn huge that you want to do what you can to clean up the possible lone A outs. If, by some miracle, you actually get it HU with BB, you'll even want to call the river unimproved.

Nemesis · #4 08-16-2004, 01:50 PM

UTG i've personally discarded suited aces, a lot of their value come from limping in cheap and flopping big, and a small part comes from the ability to make top pair, no kicker. Fortunately for you in this hand everybody calls and gives you a huge pot to play with. I fold this now as i have problems with being too loose up front, but since you didn't i think you played it very well. You made a lot of theoretical money [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

*edit* zele has a good point about raising to clean up your A outs.

worm33 · #5 08-16-2004, 02:14 PM

Played perfectly, I would raise with a3 suited here utg if you told me it was going to be 6 ways pre-flop. kj off, not so much. So I like the raise pre-flop and the rest of the streets played to perfection, except you forgot to hit.

Peter_rus · #6 08-16-2004, 03:06 PM

In these loose 1/2 games - if you know that you're usually will have 3-6 callers rather than 1-2 as on 5/10 or 10/20 than i like your PF-raise very much.

On flop i like your play figuring flop capped. But i would raise flop cause i think you didn't know that it would be raise from MP or someone else. Turn and river is OK.

tripdad · #7 08-16-2004, 03:13 PM

i will be the one to say you played this poorly. not terrible, but you made a tactical error on the flop IMO.

when SB bets out and BB calls, that's when you need to raise. many think that you want everyone to stay in when you have a draw to the nuts. however, it is very important to clean up your Ace outs, as you may win with a pair of Aces if it comes on the turn or river.

by smooth calling the first time around, you fail to protect your hand adequately. to raise when you did was purely for value when you hit the flush, but not doing anything to help you win if you hit an Ace.

cheers!

Nemesis · #8 08-16-2004, 03:31 PM

raising the flop from his posistion wouldn't really have hit the field with any terrible odds a raise from that spot only gives the field 7:1 on their calling 2 cold, which is good enough with 2 overcards. I think all raises on the flop were for value only as it was pretty much impossible to protect your hand on the flop, even a gutshot could call 2 cold with the implied odds he was looking at. On the turn raising to protect his hand is much more viable I think considering there's only 1 street left for weak draws to make up bets with in implied odds.

Tru · #9 08-16-2004, 04:07 PM

Thanks for all the help on this. I don't think that an initial flop raise is going to drive anyone out. Maybe I should have spelled it out more clearly in my original post but of the 6 of us at the table, only myself and UTG+1 seem remotely rational. All the rest have been loose calling stations. I like the thinking behind the turn raise but I think that there were typically 3 players going to showdown on many hands. Although results are irrelevant for this conversation, one player went to showdown with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Another had J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] And yet another had AJ while the winning hand was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
If J2 and J3 are not going to concede to all of the raising, I don't think I'm going to be able to push out an AK if it's out there.
Maybe it goes without saying but I think that the analysis changes considerably when we're talking about a 1-2 table as opposed to a 5-10. So the question becomes, if I know for a fact that everyone will stay in even facing a turn raise, is it still correct to do so?

Thanks,
Tru

tripdad · #10 08-16-2004, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raising the flop from his posistion wouldn't really have hit the field with any terrible odds a raise from that spot only gives the field 7:1 on their calling 2 cold, which is good enough with 2 overcards. I think all raises on the flop were for value only as it was pretty much impossible to protect your hand on the flop, even a gutshot could call 2 cold with the implied odds he was looking at. On the turn raising to protect his hand is much more viable I think considering there's only 1 street left for weak draws to make up bets with in implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

i see your point Nemesis. however, just because you think it may not work, doesn't mean you should not try. someone holding A8, while he should not fold, obviously, just may facing such action. it is clearly to your benefit to try to induce a mistake by showing more strength than you have. if they stay, fine...they call your raise and you make money when they do. even better they fold incorrectly.

i just posted basically as devil's advocate, and i think my point is quite valid.

cheers!