AJo in MP

Gatts · #1 08-12-2004, 03:11 PM

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

The raise is good, right? It makes someone with 2 hearts call 2-cold. and I figure MP2 is going to give me some good action heads up, and I most assuredly have him beat. Should I have invited overcalls by calling and then raising on a safe card, or is my hand too vulnerable? (I'm thinking it is.)

cartoonsoldier · #2 08-12-2004, 03:12 PM

Everything looks good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

LowDown22 · #3 08-12-2004, 03:35 PM

If he's on the flush draw, he's calling to the river regardless. So you need to extract the most from him that you can if he misses.

If you raise the flop, I think you crush any hope of him betting out on the turn unless the third heart appears. So you end up with 2BB from him before we see the river.

If you call the flop, and no heart hits the turn, there's a very good chance he'll still bet and you can raise him there, getting 2.5BB before the river. Plus if the heart does hit the turn, you save yourself 1SB.

So I would call the flop and raise the turn (this also hinges on the chance that he will bet the turn if the flush card does not hit, if he won't bet, then I like your play).

Atropos · #4 08-12-2004, 03:41 PM

Perfectly played. Unfortunately there is a two-flush on the board, so you cant try a fancy slowplay. Slowplays dont work anyways, so get in your money and enjoy winning the pot.

cartoonsoldier · #5 08-12-2004, 03:45 PM

What? Call the flop?

First, you don't know whether he bet his flush draw, his J, his PP, his jack-[censored] cards. What if he bet a PP and he makes a set on the turn with a non-flush card?

I would raise this flop 100% of the time - You don't want people on flush draws to draw cheaply to them.

True, they are not going to fold, but that does not mean you allow them to draw to them cheaply or not make the odds right for them to call.

He could even be on a straight draw for all you know.

LowDown22 · #6 08-12-2004, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What? Call the flop?

First, you don't know whether he bet his flush draw, his J, his PP, his jack-[censored] cards. What if he bet a PP and he makes a set on the turn with a non-flush card?

I would raise this flop 100% of the time - You don't want people on flush draws to draw cheaply to them.

True, they are not going to fold, but that does not mean you allow them to draw to them cheaply or not make the odds right for them to call.

He could even be on a straight draw for all you know.

[/ QUOTE ] So you're saying you disagree with me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Here's my logic, which may be flawed. If he is on a flush or straight draw, I assume he will not fold. So I want to make him pay the maximum. Calling the flop and raising the turn (assuming he bets the turn on his draw) will accomplish this.

As for dealing with his other possible hands, since he bet out, I'm 99% sure he's going to see the turn anyway, even if I raise the flop. If he, holding a PP, makes the set on the turn with a non-flush card he's going to burn us either way.

However, if he holds J-x or jack-[censored], unless there are 2 x's on the board, we once again make him pay the maximum. Otherwise he's just going into call down or fold mode.

Nottom · #7 08-12-2004, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my logic, which may be flawed. If he is on a flush or straight draw, I assume he will not fold. So I want to make him pay the maximum. Calling the flop and raising the turn (assuming he bets the turn on his draw) will accomplish this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also invites hands like QT or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 to hang around and catch something on the turn. Just because your raise isn't getting rid of the bettor doesn't mean you shouldn't raise.

cartoonsoldier · #8 08-12-2004, 04:43 PM

If he has a flush draw he will chase it till the river, so it makes more sense to make him pay more on the flop and the turn.

Gatts · #9 08-12-2004, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's my logic, which may be flawed. If he is on a flush or straight draw, I assume he will not fold. So I want to make him pay the maximum. Calling the flop and raising the turn (assuming he bets the turn on his draw) will accomplish this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also invites hands like QT or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 to hang around and catch something on the turn. Just because your raise isn't getting rid of the bettor doesn't mean you shouldn't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm basically asking: should I raise and get this heads up, or at least, make draws pay 2 bets to see the turn, or do I want everyone sticking around?

I'm quite happy that I got it heads up and think I made the right decision. I was just wondering what everyone else thought.

Here's the turn and river.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, MP2 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

LowDown22 · #10 08-12-2004, 04:59 PM

I see your point Nottom, and agree that limiting the number of bettors is usually beneficial for a hand like this. But, I wonder at what point are we being too conservative here?
Let's say we only call the flop and one of the two current folders now calls with his K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5. Only thing to save him is another 5, or runner-runner Ks or hearts. I think he's making a mistake (odds-wise) by calling even the one bet if he knew what we had. And isn't that precisely what we want? - For him to play his cards different from how he would if he knew what we had.