4th street, eliminate player?

[nef]

$0.50 ante, $1 bring-in, $3/$6

I am the bring in as (2d 5d) 2s.

3d calls, Ks calls, 8s calls, 7d folds, 4s folds, Kd folds.

On 4th it looks like:

ME (2d 5d) 2s Ad
P1 XX 3d Js
P2 XX Ks Qc
P3 XX 8s 4c

I check, P1 checks, P2 bets, P3 folds, I raise, P1 folds, P2 calls. My thoughts were to get heads up against what might be Kings or Queens, and eliminate something like 3-x-3 so I am only playing against 1 overpair. Also I thought it would be good to make this play sometimes without having Aces, and my pair cards are live. The main negative I see is that the pot is pretty small at the point when I raise. Any comments on this check raise?

[pstripling]

I agree with your thinking behind this play, the only thing I don't like is that you will be out of position on the following streets unless your opponent improves. If he improves he will certainly call. If your opponent is the type of player that can lay down a pair of Kings or Queens unimproved heads-up then the play was great...if not you are going to be betting into a winning hand for the rest of this hand trying to bluff him out, or showing weakness by checking.

[timmer]

Overall I like the play because your suit is totally live and your check raise adds deceptive value to your hidden flush redraw. Also you have a small chance to snake the pot with a weak yet speculative hand.

The only problem that I can see with your semi bluff check raise is if you get played with and then you catch good (A or 2) you dont earn that much for your daring play. (although you have succeeded in getting money in the pot) As either of these improved hands get their share from a multi way pot. Also If you get played with especially heads up or 3 way against a strong player(s) you are likely beat, unless you backdoor a pat and then left high and dry when you get there.[1]

With these cards and typical 3-6 players Id likely lay back a bit on this small street go for the overcalls and try to let the others fatten the pot some. I like that those extra small bets go in here.[2] [3]

If I raise then I catch bad and my lone opponent improves the play has cost me. If the SBCR works and they all fold, I snake a smallish pot which is OK in my book. If I suit thats OK too but now I might like a multi way pot better as I may possibly not get the best of odds to see it through heads up. And if I do make it an A high flush can take down a pretty good sized pot

If you up against dimwits who chase open over pairs or paired doors and pay off like free ATM's I would say the play has very good value. If they all crumble like toilet paper on a rainy day I would say likewise.

The over riding fact in My mind is that over all you dont have much of a hand at this point but it has quite good potential against this crowd. There are a bunch of good catches to your hand, if you think the Check Raise will fold only the better players and leave you in bed with just the ATM's then I say two thumbs up. If you think it will chase off all the weak money and leave you heads up with a TAP I'm not so thrilled with it.

Its a variation Play with a ton of merit In my book. However against common 3-6 players it might be lost. I like to value bet the bejezzes out of good hands in this kind of game. Let the weak players build up a pot when Im holding speculative hands and save the fancy plays solely for the better game players.

just my few cents

timmer

[1]One of the character traits of all good players is that they charge you the max to come and then bail whenever you get there unless they have a better redraw and good odd to go for it

[2]your open ace might not be as much a gift as you might think at this juncture in the hand.

[3] Although the structure described has added value to the play

[MBTIGUY]

I had started my response but then re-read Timmer's. It says everything I was thinking and I few insightful thoughts I didn't have (I agree with pstripling, too).
I'm guessing really good players (present company excluded) could make a case either way which to me says that this isn't an obvious check-raise-to-get-heads-up situation.

[Andy B]

Check-raising is fine. I favor betting out. The pot isn't that big, and $3/6 players can't always be relied upon to bet your hand for you. Checking and calling wouldn't be terrible either.

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raising is fine. I favor betting out. The pot isn't that big, and $3/6 players can't always be relied upon to bet your hand for you. Checking and calling wouldn't be terrible either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting out is a fine play. I feel perhaps it is the best play under many circumstances in a typical 3-6 game. the one thing I fear about checking with the intent of calling it could be raised by the time it gets back around to me. Over calling two cold screams draw to me.
Betting out with the Ace could prevent that. Of course betting this could backfire.

Knowledge of opponents seems to be a critical factor in deciding how to play this one. Im thinking the holders Image may play a fair part as well.

Good Post so far people, thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

timmer