2/4 party - How'd I do with TPTK vs. a 3 flush

Big Country · #1 08-09-2004, 12:53 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, UTG calls.

River: (11 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Qh Jd (straight, queen high).
Hero shows Ts Ac (one pair, tens).
Outcome: UTG wins 13 BB. 

My thoughts as I played the hand:

Preflop - I am fairly new to the table, but in the round or so I have been here, nothing out of the ordinary for your typical small stakes table,ie a couple players cold-calling 2 bets preflop with subpar holdings is not unusual. I only limp rather than raise because I am not suited, open to domination, and I do not think a raise will thin the field much, if at all.

Flop - I hit my TPTK, but there is a two flush on board. Otherwise it is a fairly ragged flop. It's checked to me so I lead out. Standard here IMO. The lack of any raise behind me makes me think that my hand is best right now.

Turn - The 9d is a scare card, as it puts a 3 flush and a 3-straight on board. This is where I am not sure if my raise is correct. I raised because I felt that the opener would have raised preflop with pair of 9's or better, so I'm not worried about an overpair or set from him, and I am thinking that becasue he did not lead out on the flop, he likely has a high lone diamond with a 9 or part of the str8 draw. I figure a raise will knock the other two players out (got one out), and I may win the pot here if the early bettor was trying to buy the pot when the scare card turned. Plus, there is still a strong chance that my hand is still currently the best one out there.

River - The turn better checks to me, so I lead out, thinking that my hand is likely the best. had he bet, I think my play would have been to merely call at this point. He calls with the top straight, apparently fearing I had diamonds.

My main concerns are whether my thought pocess preflop about not raising is correct, and if my turn raise is correct.

I appreciate any comments and feedback.

Big Country · #2 08-09-2004, 06:24 PM

chirp... chirp...... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

bisonbison · #3 08-09-2004, 06:29 PM

You'll get better (and more) responses of you don't include the results. I would probably just call the turn.

Fnord · #4 08-09-2004, 11:31 PM

I raise or fold AT in that position pre-flop. AT isn't a hand you want to be drawing against 6 other hands with for 1 SB. By raising you also take control of the hand early, often get the button and if someone 3-bets you pre-flop you have some information to work with.

TheHip41 · #5 08-10-2004, 01:58 AM

Preflop: Fold or raise. If you don't like your hand enough to raise, then fold it, you won't miss much folding A10o. I used to play this hand the same way you did, until I realized how weak it is, even when you hit a GOOD flop.

Flop: Good bet

Turn: ?? Unless you are playing aggressive players, I don't see how raising this board is going to help you. Anyone that can beat TPTK is going to call your raise here. If someone turned two pair, or a straight, or a flush, or a set, you are all but drawing dead. I might raise to get it heads up for a free showdown, but that's not why you raised. Once the third [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] fell, with 3 to a straight, with ppl to act after you, I wouldn't assume your TPTK is ahead.

River: You didn't improve. I don't see many hands the UTG player can have that you beat. Maybe K10 with one diamond, but that's about it. I check behind unimproved.

Derek

Eihli · #6 08-10-2004, 03:41 AM

I would have raised preflop and bet the flop. I don't know what the right play is on the turn but if you raise, you have to take the free showdown.

ZootMurph · #7 08-10-2004, 11:51 AM

Unlike others here, I don't raise preflop either with ATo. I will play it in a loose game, as the kicker is often a winner. But I'm folding this to a bet if I don't hit anything, so I'm not putting two bets in before the flop with it.

Anyway, flop is standard.

On the turn... UTG sparks up on a turn card which makes three to a straight and flush. If he has just two overcards like KQ, and is testing you, any J, K, Q will beat you (10 outs). A big diamond will add another 7 outs against you. PLUS, maybe he already has the straight or flush. I'd say your chance of winning this hand is very low AND you still have the button to act after you. Raise or fold situation. I'm folding here, as there are too many possibilities for you to be behind (2 pair, straight, flush), and too many possibilities to lose if you are ahead (flush and straight draws, overcards, and two pair). This may be weak, but your holding is marginal at best in a small pot (6BB after the UTG bet). If the pot was large, I'd say a raise is the best play. If you raise the turn, be prepared to fold to a three bet and check or fold the river.

There are examples similar to this in SSH, where you are holding AJ on a J98 two suited board. I don't know what page, because I'm at work and don't have the book with me (I'll have to buy another copy to keep at work).

On the river, check behind. No one ahead of you will fold for one bet here.

Monty Cantsin · #8 08-10-2004, 12:22 PM

I like the turn raise.

I think a made flush or straight is much, much more likely to go for a checkraise here than betting right into the raiser and likely knocking out a bunch of his customers.

I remember a few months ago reading a post from one of the forum blackbelts saying that in general people were too afraid to protect their vulnerable hands with bets and raises on the turn. (I specifically remember the use of italics to emphasise this point). This really made an impression on me and I believe tweaking up my inclination to raise the turn in this type of situation has improved my game.

I think you should probably fold to a subsequent 3-bet.

/mc