Pot Limit Stud. Expanding my horizons.

[bunky9590]

Two hands that I thought were straightforward, but the first hand I discussed with some other non 2+2 players said I played it weak. They didn't like the second hand much either but I thought I played the second hand well.

Stacks are Bunky 120, villian has me covered.
Pot limit stud. .25 ante, .50 force low card.

Bunky is dealt (4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Low card 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] brings it in. Folded to Bunky, Bunky pot raises with only a 3 and Ten up and the bring in left to act. The three folds, the Ten calls, and the bring in folds.

4th Street
Bunky (44) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villian (XX) T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villian pots it , I fold.


Hand 2: Same villian from other hand but I have 135 now, villian still has me covered.

Villian brings it in with (XX) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Folded to Bunky who pot raises with (3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Folded back to the villian who calls.

4th Street
Villian (XX) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Bunky (3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Pot is $9.00 or so. Bunky bets 4. Villian calls.

Pot $17.00
5th Street
Villian (XX) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Bunky (3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villian checks, Bunky bets 8. Villian calls

Pot $33.00

6th Street.
Villain (XX)2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Bunky (3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Bunky bets 10, villain raises to 30. Bunky smooth calls.
Pot now 103.00

River Bunky bricks (like I needed another card)
Villain recieves his down card I check, he bets 20, I push.

Any thoughts?

[AdamK]

Don't think you did much wrong in either of these hands.

Hand 1 is a no-brainer fold on 4th street.

Hand 2 you have him stangled on 6th street:
You do what you can to get all his chips in the middle.
If you think he would fold a flush to a reraise on 6th - you did right. Personally, I would have bet more than $10 though. If he just calls you must be sure he's going to bet 7th as a check-check would be disastrous, and I would want the pot big enough on 7th to move all-in. I'd bet $30 then all-in on 7th.

Don't think there's a right or wrong way to play here.
Depends on you you are up against - a bigger bet on 6th may scare him off.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opponent sucks. If he is dumb enough to bet seventh, he likely enough to call your push to make it worthwhile.

I think the fold in the first hand is pretty easy. It looks like you have a huge edge in this game, as your opponents can't read stud hands.

Villain is spelled like this.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponent sucks

[/ QUOTE ]
I concurr.

[ QUOTE ]
If he is dumb enough to bet seventh, he likely enough to call your push to make it worthwhile

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think he realized what my smooth call meant there. Either I filled on the river or I didnt. His subsequent bet on seventh is asking to get busted.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the fold in the first hand is pretty easy

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Was a no brainer for me, but the guys I know (who are NOT as good as 2p2 players) said they wouldn't fold there.
Either I'm already beat (which is very likely) He doesn't care that I just raised coming in and paired my doorcard.
My odds of improving are slim. I have no sidecard higher than a T and I'm not paying 9 bucks to see if I catch one.

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like you have a huge edge in this game, as your opponents can't read stud hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I'm a stud master, but I play most poker games MUCH better than my opponents. This game has been uber soft lately. Hence my foray into the world of PL Stud.

Thanks for the advice. I'll pop in occasionally to keep my game sharp.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is a no-brainer fold on 4th street.



[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I feel much better already.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 you have him stangled on 6th street:
You do what you can to get all his chips in the middle.
If you think he would fold a flush to a reraise on 6th - you did right.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a disticnt possibility. I thought if I just smooth called the raise I could get more out of him on the river. I was right. He called the push and doubled me up.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I would have bet more than $10 though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the point. I bet the 10 bucks looking for a raise from what looked like a super weak bet against a 3 flush board. I knew he made the flush. There wasnt much else he would be calling on 3rd, 4th , and 5th streets with.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The first hand I thought your fold was fine. He called a raise with the ten up, then paired his doorcard, what could he have that you want to continue playing against? Even IF he only had two tens you are still going to lose a bunch of the time, but more often you are WAY behind here. Weak schmeek. Fold.

The second hand is generally OK by me. We just hope that king made him a flush and not trips, otherwise if you get called on the river you could be in trouble. I would guess it was a risk worth taking tho.

Keep in mind I am not the expoit on pot limit stud.

al

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind I am not the expoit on pot limit stud.


[/ QUOTE ]

You play stud, you play pot limit Holdem. Just mesh the two. Pot limit theories with stud play. Wasn't hard for me to adapt.

[ QUOTE ]
We just hope that king made him a flush and not trips,

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactamundo. But I put him on a flush from 4th street. I didnt hammer away on 4th and 5th because I wanted to keep the pot smaller and

A: Not chase him away when I have concealed trips.
B: not give him a bigger bullet to fire on 5th if he makes his flush and I don't fill. On 6th it was just how can I get his stack now.

[ QUOTE ]
if you get called on the river you could be in trouble. I would guess it was a risk worth taking tho.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Magoo's cousin called my push with a King High flush.
Good times.

Thanks buddy.

[AdamK]

I'm certainly no expert on PL Stud either - but can you get me in this game? lol

As for "meshing your ideas" from stud ( the usual limit version) & Pot Limit hold-em - well.. from my experience pot limit stud is a completely different beast to either.
But as long as you are thinking about these things then it sounds like you have an edge over your opponents in this game.
"Simpletons" will lose their $$$ very quickly here.
But when the stacks are deep, a loose aggresive opponent can be very dangerous ( you may certainly need a few buy-ins).
The only literature I've read is from Ciaffione & Rueben's excellent Big Bet Poker.

Hard for me to find decent PL Stud games nowadays, but if you can,then take it from me.. if you have an edge you will hardly ever loose.
Be careful when the stacks are deep and you're against a card-player, if all chips go in on your 2nd example, a decent player is gonna beat your boat.
If you've both got a few K on the table & he raises your check-raise on the river, then you must muck your 3s full..
it's a scary game.

[Andy B]

I've never played pot-limit stud, and it's not likely to come up anytime soon. That said, the first hand is a ridiculously easy fold. On the second hand, I'm glad things worked out for you and all, but I don't like your underbetting of the pot on fourth and fifth street. To my untrained eyes, it appears that your opponent is on a flush draw, and you're giving him too cheap a price to try to outdraw you. You might bet somewhat less than the size of the pot in the hopes that he'll make an incorrect call, but half the pot is just too cheap. As for the coup you pulled off when you both connected, I was thinking as I read it, "this guy won't fall for this," and then he did. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] A half-decent player won't be nearly so cooperative. Nice hit.

I think I'd keep more money in front of me.

[studplaya]

for starters you shouldn't be playing these small garbage pocket pairs with weak kickers in a PL game, let alone raising them on 3rd street unless you have several callers before you and totally live cards, possibly giving you appropriate implied odds to play. Beyond that, the play was pretty straightforward and I agree with Andy that you gave too cheap a price with those baby trips to a drawing hand to catch up; fortunately you paired up and he still paid you off..