where to raise post flop?

dumb ox · #1 08-03-2004, 05:20 PM

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO folds.

River: (10.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Ed Miller · #2 08-03-2004, 05:30 PM

You should raise the flop bet. You have a big overpair, and the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] will sometimes bail you out if someone makes a flush on fourth street.

When the pot is large (as it was in this hand... three bets four ways), you should play aggressively with your marginal and strong hands if doing so allows you to protect your hand. Here you have two players behind you, and you can face them with calling two cold. You should do it.

Sometimes the flop bettor will have you beaten, but more often your kings will be the best hand.

But that's not even the most important point. In a pot this large, you should raise to protect your hand even if you think you are behind the majority of the time.

BTW, given that you just called the flop bet, you should have raised the turn.

Chris Daddy Cool · #3 08-03-2004, 05:35 PM

Hey Ed,

If he had black kings rather than red ones, would it be more prudent to wait till the turn to raise in this situation?

Lost Wages · #4 08-03-2004, 05:40 PM

Maybe I'm just old school but I raise the flop.

Lost Wages

Avatar · #5 08-03-2004, 05:44 PM

Ed,
I just read your chapter on Overcards. If our Hero was on the button in this situation, and one player bet out, and both called, would it now be correct to wait until the turn to raise (assuming a scare card does not come), as raising the three players on the flop would not protect our Hero's hand?

Ed Miller · #6 08-03-2004, 05:57 PM

I just read your chapter on Overcards. If our Hero was on the button in this situation, and one player bet out, and both called, would it now be correct to wait until the turn to raise (assuming a scare card does not come), as raising the three players on the flop would not protect our Hero's hand?

Well, this question is straight out of the "Two Overpairs Hands" section. Notice that in this hand, the quality of your overpair (kings) is somewhere in between the AA (with the ace of the flush suit) and the TT (without the ten from the flush suit) from the examples.

With the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I think raising is clearly the correct play. Your equity is reasonably close to the equity of AA in the example hand in the book. With black kings, the decision becomes closer, but I'd lean toward raising still. Kings are a tough nut to crack. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

With black Queens, I might just call. At the very least that decision is getting pretty close to the line.

sublime · #7 08-03-2004, 05:57 PM

I just read your chapter on Overcards. If our Hero was on the button in this situation, and one player bet out, and both called, would it now be correct to wait until the turn to raise (assuming a scare card does not come), as raising the three players on the flop would not protect our Hero's hand?

I think hero has to much equity to not raise if he was on the button. In the TT example in Ed'd book there are a lot more scare cards that can fall on the turn.

nepenthe · #8 08-03-2004, 05:58 PM

If I was feeling aggressive I wait to raise ANY card on the turn, including the flush. My default line is to raise the flop here and now.

Avatar, in the situation you describe, if you wait until the turn to raise given that everyone is still in the hand, it would be for value, rather than for inducing folds as you're not forcing anyone with calling 2 cold. I would tend to just raise the flop in this situation, bet the turn, bet the river.