30-60, tough turn decision

[Jacob]

30-60 game, 10 handed. I have been playing for 5 hours and losing badly(down about 2k). I was playing very solid but got my AA and KK cracked by two outers on the river 4 times. Anyways this is not a bad beat post.

Q1 - This was a very good game, lot of times capped pre flop with 5-6 people. Lot of asians in a gambling mood. Trying to hit 2-3 outers, staying till the river. The reason I stayed even after down 2k was because the game was so good. Is this a good reason to keep playing even though I was down a lot or should I have just called it a night.

Q2 - Turn Question -

I am in MP with Kh5h. UTG raises(he is also losing a lot and is raising, reraising with any suited ace or suited connectors). Fold to me. I also call(probably a mistake, but I decided to play it one time). Another player calls, button calls, BB calls.

Flop - Qs3h4h. UTG bets. I think this is a nice flop for me and call. MP2 raises, button calls, UTG calls I call.(18 BB in the pot)

Turn - Ac. UTG checks. I thought about betting(I really did) I put UTG on Q high flush draw. I figured I had 12 nut outs(9 for flush and 3 for straight). The main reason was there was a lot bluff check raising on turn in this game and I wanted to be committed to seeing the river. This is prbably completely wrong thinking and I guess thats why I checked. MP2 also checked. Button bet and now UTG raised.(24 BB in the pot). The raise by URG completely threw me off. I thought about it maybe he doesnt have Qhigh but Ahigh flush draw, giving me just 3 clean outs for my straight. I folded. My question is should I have played or folded? I know I probably made lot of mistakes, but am just looking for some constructive advice.

Thanks for your responses.

[Robk]

Hi Jacob,

Before the flop your call was a big mistake. K5s is playable under very rare circumstances: when you are on the button, many players are in, and the pot is unraised. Even then it is a barely profitable hand. When the pot is raised, and no one else is in, it's a clear fold regardless of the raiser's opening standards. Considering the likelihood of further raises in this aggressive game, calling is a particularly bad error.

You caught a great flop for your hand. Since UTG would raise many hands and probably bet them all, I would have raised him on the flop. This flop raise costs you next to nothing in expectation and could significantly increase your chances of winning this reasonably large pot. You may get a better king or a pocket pair less than queens to fold. Also hands like AT may fold. If you can limit the pot to yourself and UTG, or UTG and one other weak holding, you've made a great play and you may now win by catching a five or bluffing through the river. These are rare scenarios but again because of your flush/overcard equity, playing aggressively is almost a freeroll.

Once the pot was raised behind you and there were two callers you should have reraised for value. You're getting 3-1 on your money and are about 1.8-1 to make your draw by the river. So even though there is some chance of a reraise by MP, which may knock out a player, you are getting a nice overlay on your value raise here.

On the turn I don't think a bet was the correct play. With the pot this large and 3 opponents I think it will be impossible to steal, or knock out a hand you would like to fold.

When it came back to you for two bets you should have called. The nut flush draw could be out there, but that's quite unlikely. You had 12 outs to a likely winner and were getting immediate pot odds of 12-1. Even though some of your outs will occasionally be no good or split the pot, your overlay was so large that there's no way you could fold.

[AcesUp]

Q1 - This is highly dependent on your state of mind and your ability to continue playing well given your current situation (down 35 big bets). If you believe that you're still playing your "A" game, then by all means stay, but personally I believe there are very few players out there that can be in 35 BB to a loose and wild game, and still be playing their best.

Q2 - First, why just call pre-flop? If you think you have a good read on your opponent, and you think that either you have a better hand or that you can outplay him after the flop, why give other players an opportunity to jump in. You should have either raised or folded here (personally, I would have folded, as there are going to be plenty of better spots to isolate than with Kxs). Also, if this is the same crazy, loose game from Q1, it's unlikely you'd get heads-up with the guy, so just fold and wait for a better spot.

On the flop -- call is okay here, as you likely have the best draw (with a backdoor straight draw as well). Though a raise wouldn't be too bad, as you'd have the opportunity to limit the field, which is what you'd want if a King or 5 were to come on the turn. Considering you're likely to get at least two other callers if you raise (based on the texture of the game), a call is probably giving you the best pot odds for your draw(s), so no issue there.

Checking the turn is probably okay, since you're unlikely to win it with a bet, and you now likely need the flush to win the hand. But, you say that when it gets back to you raised, there are 24 BB in the pot. I didn't figure it out myself, but if there are really 24 BB in the pot, you are getting 12-1 on your call...and you're only a 4-1 underdog to hit what is likely the second nuts!

Unless you are fairly certain that the nut flush draw is out there (how can you be?!?!!?), this is a very easy call.

No offense (seriously), but if your play of this hand seemed completely reasonable to you, I think you might be over your head in a typical 30-60 game.

Just my $.02...


-Aces

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
30-60 game, 10 handed. I have been playing for 5 hours and losing badly(down about 2k). I was playing very solid but got my AA and KK cracked by two outers on the river 4 times. Anyways this is not a bad beat post.

Q1 - This was a very good game, lot of times capped pre flop with 5-6 people. Lot of asians in a gambling mood. Trying to hit 2-3 outers, staying till the river. The reason I stayed even after down 2k was because the game was so good. Is this a good reason to keep playing even though I was down a lot or should I have just called it a night.


[/ QUOTE ]
Only you can answer that question. If you can still play your A+ game after dropping $2K, then you should definitely stay. If you're now playing poorly, then you should leave.

[ QUOTE ]

Q2 - Turn Question -

I am in MP with Kh5h. UTG raises(he is also losing a lot and is raising, reraising with any suited ace or suited connectors). Fold to me. I also call(probably a mistake, but I decided to play it one time). Another player calls, button calls, BB calls.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is an absolutely awful cold call. This should be an instamuck.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop - Qs3h4h. UTG bets. I think this is a nice flop for me and call. MP2 raises, button calls, UTG calls I call.(18 BB in the pot)


[/ QUOTE ]
Routine flop action. But how on earth did you get 18 BB in the pot? There were 5 players preflop for 1 BB each, plus the small blind, so that makes it 5.25 BB when the flop hits. The flop action adds 4 BB to the pot, so it's now 9.25 BB. Did you maybe mean 18 SB?

[ QUOTE ]
Turn - Ac. UTG checks. I thought about betting(I really did) I put UTG on Q high flush draw.


[/ QUOTE ]
Betting here would be really bad because you may quite possibly get raised and there's no chance of you buying the pot.

[ QUOTE ]

I figured I had 12 nut outs(9 for flush and 3 for straight). The main reason was there was a lot bluff check raising on turn in this game and I wanted to be committed to seeing the river. This is prbably completely wrong thinking and I guess thats why I checked.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is completely wrong thinking. Your thinking is "I'll make a -EV move right now so that I later have the proper odds to call whatever action they throw at me".

[ QUOTE ]

MP2 also checked. Button bet and now UTG raised.(24 BB in the pot).


[/ QUOTE ]
No, there are now 12.25 BB in the pot, which means you have the odds to call 2 cold if you think your flush draw is good. And it will be most of the time. The only concern is if you think the button is very likely to 3-bet, but you have the odds even then.

[ QUOTE ]

The raise by URG completely threw me off. I thought about it maybe he doesnt have Qhigh but Ahigh flush draw, giving me just 3 clean outs for my straight. I folded. My question is should I have played or folded? I know I probably made lot of mistakes, but am just looking for some constructive advice.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think folding here was a mistake. UTG is much more likely to have AQ than some A high flush draw that you're worried about.

But the biggest issue is that you had no business being in this hand to begin with. I'm not trying to be rude (honestly), but if this is how you normally play, you shouldn't be playing in this expensive game. If this is not how you normally play, then it sounds like dropping $2K had a serious effect on you and you should have left.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
Q2 - Turn Question -

I am in MP with Kh5h. UTG raises(he is also losing a lot and is raising, reraising with any suited ace or suited connectors). Fold to me. I also call(probably a mistake, but I decided to play it one time).

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that throughout this session, this was not just a "one time" call. These type of calls turn you bad sessions (down 15-20BB) to your horrible sessions (25-35BB). I know, I've been there. As for the hand, call the turn.

[Jacob]

sorry I made a mistake, meant to say SB instead of BB

[mikelow]

Q1--I would quit. Some have the capability of coming from
behind, but I'm (and probably not you) aren't one of them. As evidenced
by Q2, you were on tilt. I would have folded preflop and not faced
the turn issue. As for the turn--call!

I would hve quit for the night and done some real evaluation the next day.
I don't like to lose more than one buy-in and I will stop playing idf the second one is disappearing also.

There will be better games later on. Don't tap you yourself out before you
get there. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[elysium]

hi jacob

this is a very good game. you are a card player. you will play while the game is good. end of story.

when you hit the 30 hour mark or so, the lack of sleep will begin to take its toll on the integrity of your betting decisions. needless to say, often times the the combination of listlessness and bad decisions are not inducive for the enhancement of one's ev. and often, opponents take advantage of the sleep deprived's compromised ability to correctly decide upon which of the multiple various decisions is the absolute correct decision in a given strategical complexity requiring the use of structured mathematical formulas, and relative values. his eyes are bloodshot, he suffers microcoma muscle trama and involuntary brain wave jolts to keep his internal physiology on cue with the limited capacity of his overworked neurons. and so he develops natural microcoma rythm and shakes. even his fingers seem to come alive with each sucessive wave jolt keeping him alive like that. and in good rythm.

and so they bet. into him like that. between wave jolts. hoping for error. as he kittykat naps.

well, it becomes clear that as we get into post 30 hour mark, our physiological appearence generates heavy action while we are involved in a particular hand. that's the good news. the bad news is that we play miserably due to micro-hallucinations. by the way, does anyone here know of a good position to catch a half minute or so kittykat nap? if there's a wall directly behind me, i lean back in my chair and the wall catches my fall like. and i can usually get in a half minute or so. but what if there isn't a wall?

anyway, at 30+ hours, your appearance gets you all the action you can handle, but you will experience phantom sensations and see things that aren't there. anyone familiar with driving while sleepy knows that the danger is not falling asleep behind the wheel, the danger is swerving to avoid that goat eating the fallen tree in the road that isn't there. don't ask me why, but goats like to do that a lot when you're sleepy. well, these same mild form hallucinations take place at the table. so you must tighten down significantly. you must try to get a seat with a wall behind it that you can lean back against. if that isn't possible, someone should run a post about the best way to position yourself to take in a catnap. and most important of all, double check the board and your cards, even if it means holding up the game momentarily. if you make out that you have a strong hand, bet it strongly and act naturally. act just like you feel. you will be amazed at how much action your appearance generates.

hand 2) jacob, you're fully rested physically, but playing poorly peakedly. go get some sleep.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Q1 - This was a very good game, lot of times capped pre flop with 5-6 people. Lot of asians in a gambling mood. Trying to hit 2-3 outers, staying till the river. The reason I stayed even after down 2k was because the game was so good. Is this a good reason to keep playing even though I was down a lot or should I have just called it a night .

Q2 - Turn Question -

I am in MP with Kh5h. UTG raises(he is also losing a lot and is raising, reraising with any suited ace or suited connectors). Fold to me. I also call

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you should call it a night.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn - Ac. UTG checks. I thought about betting(I really did) I put UTG on Q high flush draw. I figured I had 12 nut outs(9 for flush and 3 for straight). The main reason was there was a lot bluff check raising on turn in this game and I wanted to be committed to seeing the river. This is prbably completely wrong thinking and I guess thats why I checked. MP2 also checked. Button bet and now UTG raised.(24 BB in the pot). The raise by URG completely threw me off. I thought about it maybe he doesnt have Qhigh but Ahigh flush draw, giving me just 3 clean outs for my straight. I folded. My question is should I have played or folded? I know I probably made lot of mistakes, but am just looking for some constructive advice .

[/ QUOTE ]

If you truly are, mine is don't play 30/60.

[Cerril]

I'll make some occasional bad decisions with Kxs and Axs as well if I see people -routinely- making the decisions they do (calling, raising, whatever it is you're facing) with substantially worse cards. It sounds like this guy's raising standards were bad but that you were still beat more often than a call deserved even on the button or possibly SB. In MP, too many people might wake up with worse hands, and it sounds like you don't have the option of driving anyone out with a reraise here and representing better than you have postflop, so the first reaction should be 'I shouldn't have called with K5s, but since I did...' If it's not, then consider yourself warned (by everyone else, certainly, in far more certain terms).

That said, it's quite possible for a bad decision to lead to several good ones. When you lose those hands it's due to the bad decision, but you lose less when you make the good ones and if you win it's because of the good decisions. I've certainly had hands that I regret calling with that have 8 outs to the nuts on the flop (or maybe some backdoor draws with overcards) and turn into 15 by the turn (or at least a nut flush/straight draw). I think the turn play is an easy call in the game you described. There are only two possibilities here, given who you're up against. You can't give it up, unless you -can- put someone on the nut flush draw, in which case you suck it up and get out (I think your decision has to be high-certainty - I couldn't say whether that means 75% or 90% - for a fold to be right).

So it's between calling (and anticipating calling two more bets) or folding. I'd probably call and hope for the straight, but probably play the flush equally passively.

Last note, looking at the flop again I'd have had a strong inclination to check/fold seeing it. There's just no hand you could make from that point forward that couldn't also trap you into getting pounded for a lot of chips with second best. Even a 4-flush like that might not have been enough, I'd have to consider my outs not complete at the very least.