SSH Overcard Outs?

[chson]

Are overcards worth .5 outs or 1 out each? The examples in the book seem to vary between the two for no apparent reason.

[Ed Miller]

Are overcards worth .5 outs or 1 out each? The examples in the book seem to vary between the two for no apparent reason.

How many do you think they should be worth? Can it change from hand to hand?

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
Are overcards worth .5 outs or 1 out each? The examples in the book seem to vary between the two for no apparent reason.

How many do you think they should be worth? Can it change from hand to hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Ed.

I personally always count overcards as 1 full out each. The only exception is if one or two of the overcard outs gives someone a possible flush. If that's the case, I do not count those particular overcards as outs so a 6 outter becomes a 4.

[Ed Miller]

I personally always count overcards as 1 full out each.

Do your overcards win 100% of the time when you make a pair on the turn?

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Do your overcards win 100% of the time when you make a pair on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately they do not for me.

Ed, this is a good specific example of how your book has helped my play. Instead of just thinking whether or not a particular out is "clean", I also think whether making top pair will be good enough and discount accordingly. Of course, you need to look for possible hidden outs as well, as you discuss thoroughly.

Thanks again.

Colgin

[Joe Tall]

You have KJs and the flop is T96r, how you feel about your overcards?

You have KJs and the flop is T62r, how about now?

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally always count overcards as 1 full out each.

Do your overcards win 100% of the time when you make a pair on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing is ever 100% and I see your point; however, my original question is why some examples have overcards counted as full outs and in others they're not. I don't have the book on me right now so I can't cite the specific examples but there are quite a few.

[chson]

[ QUOTE ]
You have KJs and the flop is T96r, how you feel about your overcards?

You have KJs and the flop is T62r, how about now?

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Joe.

1) I would have 3-4 outs (counting the K and J as .5 each) so that's most likely a fold.

2) I have 6-7 outs (counting K and J as 1 each) and that's most likely a raise.

I'll reread some parts of the book tonight but I remember an example similar to your 2nd question that counted the overcard outs as .5 each.

[Ed Miller]

Nothing is ever 100% and I see your point; however, my original question is why some examples have overcards counted as full outs and in others they're not. I don't have the book on me right now so I can't cite the specific examples but there are quite a few.

Ah.. I've figured out your confusion. I should have anticipated a problem here.

In the book I distinguish between an "out" and an "out to top pair or better." In the former case, I mean an "out to win" which you should discount for the probability that that card will, in fact, win.

In the latter case, an "out to top pair or better," I'm really just counting the number of cards that make a hand of at least top pair. So I might say, "I have 14 outs to top pair or better." I really just mean, "There are 14 cards that give me top pair or better."

But if I were to count outs TO WIN, I'd discount the overcard outs accordingly (depending on the board, number of opponents, etc., I might make them worth 0.5 outs each).

I shouldn't have used the word "out" in both places. "Card" is more appropriate for the second case.

[Rah]

I wouldn't like it either way, since a calling player likely has JT.