Flop or Turn 2 - 10/20

[Franchise (TTT)]

Typical Party LAGs, one limps UTG, you raise from button, BB and UTG call.

You have Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets. Raise the flop, turn, or river?

[tripdad]

i would just call down the LAG on this one. if BB calls, do the same on the turn. if he folds on the flop, raise the LAG on the turn.

cheers!

[Guido]

I raise this on the flop. You probably have the best hand and when you don't you have a lot of outs. Calling down isn't the right action IMO. You don't want an A or K on the turn or river except a spade of course... Why give them a chance to suck out on you cheap?

When they are LAGs they will call your raise anyway so why not get the most out of them by raising the flop?

Guido

[vector]

I agree, definitely raise the flop, your flush draw isn't nearly as attractive after the turn card comes (unless its no longer a flush draw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[stripsqueez]

with any pair and a 4 flush i may check-raise the flop but other than that i will not be out bet - ever

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[34TheTruth34]

call on the flop with the intention of three-betting a checkraise. you can't let the BB fold--and he won't for one bet on that board.

[2000Flushes]

I'm with the raise the flop people, your hand while having large potential for improvement is still vulnerable ... try and get rid of those blinds, and if they wont go then charge them to stay.

[Franchise (TTT)]

This seems to be the most popular of my 3 threads, so I'll post my reply here. I'm looking for feedback on this specific concept regarding these games.

I was hoping more 10/20 players like Schneids and El Diablo would post, so I could get more sample data points. But my point of contention is this: I believe a lot of you are splashing around too many chips on the flop.

Raising the flop is good, but there have to be some spots that you'll just call on the flop and raise the turn. You have to be a threat to have a good hand (but not slowplayed great) on the turn when you have position on the aggressor. The more observant of the 10/20 LAGs will remember the last time you stung them on the turn, and allow you to pick up free cards on the turn, or possibly pick up pots this way (like the ever popular floaters).

Some of these 10/20 LAGs are more sophisticated than they let on, and a lot of them will wilt under the flop pressure. They'll occasionally just call the rest of the way, but a lot of the time they'll fold on the turn or river as well, when they'll pay off a one-round slowplay, even with their weaker hands. Of course, you can also make note of the ones who insta-fold on the turn raises, and begin using that as a bluff method.

This is good when you want a free card or a cheap showdown, but when you have a hand that's very likely to be better than theirs, you have to extract some value from it via deception once in a while.

Maybe my examples just suck then. I tried to put a decent sized pot (3BB) on the flop where the pot isn't so large you can't afford to string them by some, and I thought all 3 were relatively close, and would depend on meta-game conditions.

Comments?

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]
call on the flop with the intention of three-betting a checkraise. you can't let the BB fold--and he won't for one bet on that board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like this answer the most. You have a pair of Q's, so there's only two overcards that can hit. And chances are, you have more cards that improve your hand than your opponents do that improve theirs.

I'd wait and raise the turn to extract bigger money from this one, raising unless an A or K of non-spades hits.

[vector]

Good points. I come from 5-10 land, where I don't believe such sophistication is necessarily warranted.

FWIW, I still think you should raise this on the flop. I agree you need to wait to the turn sometimes, in order to scare them into checking when you don't have much, but I think it would be better to do this with hands like TPTK (without the flush draw). I just feel that the value of this hand deteriorates significantly after the turn (when the flush doesn't hit), so it makes sense to get more money in when the hand is stronger.

If your opponents are observant this play will help you get more turn freecards in the future by raising the flop. I assume that at 10-20 the basic move of raise flop with position to get a turn free card is resisted more vigorously than at 5-10, so it seems you can make almost the exact same argument for rasing the flop with very good hands as you make about raising the turn. That is, you have to do it with great hands sometimes, to stop your observant opponents from denying you the free card by betting into you again on the turn (because they fear you aren't after a free card, but actually have a better hand than them).

I guess what I am saying is I agree with your thinking, but disagree with implementing it on this specific hand.

But this is probably all too clouded by my playing 5-10 games. Curious what other 10-20 players make of it.