A More Refined Discussion of The Limp-Reraise

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Recently, I've been considering how frequently a limp-reraise turns out to be AA or KK. In my experience, most intermediates (beginners usually don't pull this move) will ONLY limp-reraise with those two hands. Occasionally, one will see AK/QQ, but how often? 25% of the time? 10%? 5%?

Along those lines, if you decide that you prefer to limp-reraise with AA UTG, what other hands should you be limp-reraising in order to create an effective "Shania." For those who haven't read this essay, think of Shania as "range of hands."

So, here are some questions that I hope will provide fruitful discussion:

1) Under what circumstances (i.e. game level, percentage of stack, stack sizes, etc.) would you fold KK to a limp-reraise from an unknown? I'm particularly interested in responses from those who said that a fold would have been incorrect here, had I actually folded...

2) Which is the most effective range of hands to limp-reraise with in a game that features beginning (read: unobservant and poor-playing) opponents: AA/KK, AA/98s, or AA/KK/98s?

3) Which is the most effective range of hands to limp-reraise with in a game that features intermediate (read: semi-observant and decent) opponents: AA/KK, AA/98s, or AA/KK/98s?

4) Which is the most effective range of hands to limp-reraise with in a game that features expert (read: observant and skilled) opponents: AA/KK, AA/98s, or AA/KK/98s?

5) What is your ideal range of hands for limp-reraising in a game that features beginning opponents?

6) What is your ideal range of hands for limp-reraising in a game that features intermediate opponents?

7) What is your ideal range of hands for limp-reraising in a game that features expert opponents?

For questions 2-7, assume that you are UTG and that the game is sufficiently aggressive to warrant a limp-reraise and that the stacks are reasonably (at least 100 BB) deep. If deeper (200-300 BB) stacks changes your answer, how so? Also, I'm sure it'll come up, so also assume that after you limp, an MP limps, an LMP raises to 5 BB, and the blinds fold.

I hope that the scope of this post isn't too wide. I think that the "answers" to 2-7 are all related by an underlying concept. But, answer as many or few of the questions as you want...

Thanks in advance for the responses. I'll provide my thoughts soon.

ML4L

[TStoneMBD]

Rather than answer these questions 1 by 1 I am going to answer in a more conceptual matter. One of the largest factors in determining how you should play your UTG position depends upon how much respect your raises get. For me personally, I don't raise very often preflop unless I have a premium hand. UTG I won't raise with pocket Ts anymore, but will sometimes raise with AJs or KQ. If the game is seeing alot of raise preflop, I will always limp reraise with AA or KK UTG. If the game is very passive than obviously a limp-reraise doesn't work and you simply just have to do the work yourself. I think that in an easy game or fairly easy game you should only be limp-reraising with AA or KK, and sometimes QQ. If you have a really good read on all the players at the table who are consistent raisers than I would agree to limp-raising with QQ. The only other hand that I could possibly see limpraising with is AK, but this can only be done if your limpraises are going to take the pot down preflop. I think that it is pretty clear that it is difficult to play AK out of position on a missed flop especially when you are already so committed due to stack sizes. In a tough game I think raising UTG is simply the better play overall as you should generally be mixing up your UTG raises to throw off observant opponents. If the tough game is getting alot of raises preflop than a limpraise with AA or KK is fine.

The biggest reasons for limpraising with AA and KK are as follows:

1) Your preflop raises are getting too much respect, if you raise you'll only win the blinds.

2) Your table is seeing raises from alot of preflop LAGs. If you have a LAG to your left and he raises you will often trap as many as 4 players to your reraise.

3) If you can win $40 in a 1/2 game by taking it down, this is much better than raising it to 10 preflop and having 4 callers forcing you to play your hand out of position on the flop when someone can break you.

I don't feel that it is important to limpraise with a marginal hand for advertising because you should be satisfied taking down the pot regardless. Even if your opponents know that you are limpraising with rockets, they will often call because they either have correct pot odds or they misunderstand what correct pot odds are (which is more likely the case). When I limp in UTG preflop and am fortunate enough to trap someone into raising, I usually get enough action that I am able to set someone all-in on the flop and pick up a nice pot somewhere between 30x-100xBB.

[Under Control]

In 10 handed nl online (I played 25 for a while and have now moved up to 50) I have found that I like limp reraising with AA AK QQ and KK. As it has been stated before, it is VERY hard to play out of position with AK, but it is a great hand to race with, and QQ can also be a little difficult sometimes. For AA and KK, you just don't get enough action preflop from UTG or UTG+1-2, but people will convince themselves into calling your reraises with hands you dominate if you limp reraise. In a more skilled game (nl 25 and 50 are complete jokes), it seems that this play is too obvious and you might be better off just raisign with these hands and a few random hands to mix your opponents up, or at least steal some more blinds.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
AA/KK/98s?


[/ QUOTE ]

For all questions, AA/KK yes, 98s definitely NOT. Maybe there is some obscure reason you might try this, like 98s beats aces most often, but it's a medium suited connector, not AA, and if you get called you are almost certainly way behind.

al

[TheGrifter]

I will note that of all playable hands 89s is probably the absolute worst to limp re-raise UTG.

The decision to limp re-raise is, for me, a function of the aggressiveness of the table. If the table is VERY aggressive, and loose, I might limp-re-raise AJ UTG...however if the table is passive I won't try it with any hand, even AA.

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Thanks for the responses so far. A couple things:

- I'll say right now that against experts, if you only limp-reraise with AA/KK, you're better off never doing it.

- If you don't like 98s, that's what questions 5-7 are for. Tell me what hands you would prefer to have in your range. I chose 98s as a result of the things discussed in this thread.

More thoughts later.

ML4L

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]

- I'll say right now that against experts, if you only limp-reraise with AA/KK, you're better off never doing it.

- If you don't like 98s, that's what questions 5-7 are for. Tell me what hands you would prefer to have in your range. I chose 98s as a result of the things discussed in this thread.

More thoughts later.

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

I do everything in my power to avoid playing against experts.

How about small/medium pairs, if you feel the need to mix it up, I'd much rather play pocket 6's out of position than 89s.

[ML4L]

Hey all,

I'm just bumping this. I won't be able to give my thoughts for a few more days, so be prepared for me to bump it again when I give my thoughts.

Thanks for the replies so far, but it sucks that there haven't been more. I think the topic is fairly important. We'll see if others agree...

ML4L

[turnipmonster]

in pot limit, the biggest reason for limp reraising is the small amount you can open for relative to the stack sizes.

in a 5/10 game, you are typically looking at 2k+ stacks and a max open of 35 straight. anyone will call you with a pocket pair, and we all know how much your big pair is worth postflop out of position [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

to me, a limp reraise is very powerful in pot limit for two reasons. first, you can raise enough to make your opponents make a significant mistake by calling you. you really want to force your opponents to put in more than about 10% of their stack, as that is a signifacant mistake they might make.

second, and this is very important in a regular game, by being a known limp reraiser you are protecting your open limps. there is nothing worse than someone who raises behind you every single time and makes you play a pot with them out of position. usually it takes about 2 limp reraises to teach your opponents they cannot raise your limps with impunity.

--turnipmonster

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
and we all know how much your big pair is worth postflop out of position .

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooo ooo me first....not much?!?

fsuplayer