calling down with KK heads up

steveyz · #1 07-23-2004, 10:16 AM

Is this standard?

My read on my opponent was that he was aggressive, but not quite a LAG.

I thought about raising the flop and checking the turn for a cheaper showdown, but I wasn't sure I could laydown for a flop 3-bet.

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Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB
Main Pot: 9.50 BB, between SB and Hero.

Eric P · #2 07-23-2004, 11:19 AM

Why don't you raise the flop and save half a bet? If he leads into you again it's bye bye time

lostinthought · #3 07-23-2004, 11:33 AM

I would raise the flop.

How loose is this guy? Is he capable of playing like he did with QQ or JJ?

Cheap Shot · #4 07-23-2004, 11:53 AM

I agree completely with first poster. He capped preflop - best case scenario you are up against QQ or JJ. Somehow I doubt that though because he kept firing at you when you capped too. He also 3 bet out of position. I think you reraise the flop - if he calls and then checks the turn - you may have him. Otherwise if he calls and puts anymore money in the pot I would get out of there and you save yourself 1 1/2 BB. And of course if he reraises on the flop you get out too. I would guess you are up against AA or AK.

Cheap Shot · #5 07-23-2004, 11:59 AM

Also, I really like calling the 3 bet preflop and not capping. If you cap - he knows you are playing 1 of 4 hands most likely since its heads up. If you call - you could be playing 10-15 different hands. It conceals your strength and if you are ahead you will make it up with deception later in the hand. I would be weary any time a SB 3 bets out of position like that. Again if you just smooth call you have position on him, and a really really good hand. It also saves yourself another bet incase you need to ditch the kings.

kamelion44 · #6 07-23-2004, 12:12 PM

I agree with the other two replies, if you don't have a read on a definite Ace, you should raise the flop if you're going to play. This will slow down any hand that's worse than yours at this point (for example, an aggressive player-which is what you read him as- with QQ or JJ would hate to just check/fold to a guy with position and almost certainly would be driven by his aggression to bet the flop and represent that A, and certainly a flush draw would bet into you) and give you a better read. If he does have an Ace, it will most likely give you a free turn, or perhaps even better, you will get 3-bet, and can safely fold on the flop without having to pay those two expensive turn/river bets. The only advantage I see over calling is if you're up against a habitual bluffer (and you did say he was aggressive) who will represent that Ace even if he has a lower PP than you, such as TT or JJ, and takes your calls as a sign, legitimately so, that you have no Ace yourself. But against such an aggressive player, it doesn't hurt to check the turn back at him when he checks to you, and get that extra bet from him on the river, when he hopelessly bluffs into you (unless he'll run a bluff from flop to river, with your calls, in which case you would have maximized your profit by just calling...however, this is probably overwhelmed by those times you call down two BBs and get shown AJ, etc.). Same for a flush draw that may decide to run a bluff on the river when he's busted. Although I could see these scenarios being realistic and possible, my gut reaction is that you were probably up against an Ace (isn't that always the case with those beautiful cowboys?). But regardless, in this spot, I like raising the flop.

MarkD · #7 07-23-2004, 12:28 PM

Ok, it appears I’m going to be devil’s advocate here and say that I like your line best and I think raising the flop here is wrong.

If you raise the flop every hand that you have beat, except a flush draw can pretty safely fold after you capped pre-flop. I’m specifically talking about QQ, JJ, and TT which are quite likely for the SB to hold here.

The SB 3-bet hands are essentially AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and possibly AQs.

AA – 3 combinations
AK – 6 combinations
AQs – 4 combinations (but I think this is a lot less likely then the other hands)
KK – 1 combination
QQ – 6 combinations
JJ – 6 combinations
TT – 6 combinations

So, of the 32 total combinations I can put the SB on you are ahead of 18, behind to 13 and tied with 1.

Of the 18 hands that you are ahead, by raising the flop you are giving them the information they need to fold cheaply. I think most players at 2+2 as well as most mediocre but not great players would fold this flop with QQ, JJ, and TT if they bet and got raised by an UTG pre-flop capper. In fact, I think betting this flop with an underpair is a pretty common line at party throughout the limits specifically so they can fold if raised because head’s up with that pre-flop action a flush draw isn’t a very likely hand for either player.

These same players will continue to bet their hand if they don’t get raised and this is the key. Most of them will bet the turn and then check the river, which you will bet and they will call with.

So what happens if we raise the flop? We allow all of the hands we beat to safely fold, while still paying a fair price the times that we are beat since I think the best line with a lot of the hands that have us beat would be to simply call the flop raise and then check the turn. If you check behind you are obligated to call the river bet and this costs you 2bb’s total vs. the 2.5bb’s that calling down costs you, but you make a lot less when you are actually ahead.

Now, there are definitely player profiles where raising this flop will be the best play but I think this is a lot rarer than when it is correct to simply call down. Calling down gets a bad rap.

lostinthought · #8 07-23-2004, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The SB 3-bet hands are essentially AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and possibly AQs.

AA – 3 combinations
AK – 6 combinations
AQs – 4 combinations (but I think this is a lot less likely then the other hands)
KK – 1 combination
QQ – 6 combinations
JJ – 6 combinations
TT – 6 combinations

So, of the 32 total combinations I can put the SB on you are ahead of 18, behind to 13 and tied with 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey MarkD,
nice post. I see your reasoning, but I think JJ and TT are more debatable than you make than out to be.

If you take those two out you get: 20 total combinations where you ahead of 6 behind 13 and tied with 1. That's a completely different picture.

Now, I am not saying that 3 betting from the SB with TT or JJ to a UTG raiser and a folded field is terrible play, but just not as likely as the others. Is this weak? Does anybody else think TT and JJ are auto 3 bets in this situation?

MarkD · #9 07-23-2004, 03:21 PM

I think JJ is an auto 3-bet here for sure and I would also 3-bet TT to make sure I got it heads up. I'm not saying this is right necessary but it's the play I am currently making.

Anyways, if the player won't raise with TT or JJ here then he also won't raise AQs so the odds drops down to 6 times that you are ahead and 9 times you are behind with one split and you have enough of an overlay to call down.

But I really think JJ will often be a 3-bet here by most players in the party 15 game and I would make this raise everytime atm. So this swings it to 12-9 or 12-13 and we still have a situation where I want a showdown.

steveyz · #10 07-23-2004, 03:22 PM

Personally, I would not 3-bet here with TT. I might with JJ depending on my read on UTG. However, my read on the SB in this case was that he was pretty aggressive so I don't think we can rule out JJ or TT.