UB 10/20 Red Kings, Bad Flops

JohnShaft · #1 07-21-2004, 01:40 PM

This is the first of two hands last night that were almost identical. In both I had red Kings headsup against the same opponent on Ace high flops. The 2nd hand I think I played optimally, but I'm interested how people would have dealt with *this* hand, and if there's a way to play it that is close to optimal (given the reliable info on the opponent).

Game is decent. Loose in 3 spots. But fairly solid in the others.
Opponent is pure TAG. Not one of the people I'm here to play.
15% VPIP, 7% PFR on 200 hands. I haven't seen him get out of line. His WTSD is a super low 20% but that's _probably_ mostly due to the small sample size.

Ultimate Bet 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 6 folds, SB raises, 1 fold, Hero calls,

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ...

What's you action, and what's your plan now to play the hand out?

Do you bet the flop, and what do you do if he checkraises?
If you check the flop what do you do on the Turn and the River.

Thanks guys.

balkii · #2 07-21-2004, 01:47 PM

Checking the flop seems like a good play. You're either way ahead or way behind, and it would suck to get checkraised with all those backdoor draws.

Also the 3-bet preflop then check the huge flop always puts the fear of a set in me.

Once the flop is checked, I would call down if he bet both streets. If checks, bet?

Joe Tall · #3 07-21-2004, 02:12 PM

I check the flop here, you are only ahead of JJ and TT and behind numerous other 3-betting combos. I'd likely call down thereafter.

Peace,
Joe Tall

bdk3clash · #4 07-21-2004, 02:15 PM

Question: Why didn't you cap preflop? Not criticizing, just curious.

I'm curious because a few weeks ago I had a thinking opponent (Randy Burgess) w/ KK not cap my preflop 3-bet (w/ QQ) and it [censored] me up something good for the rest of the hand. Should I be doing stuff like this against quasi-thoughtful opponents like myself in the future?

the hand

Yeknom58 · #5 07-21-2004, 02:25 PM

I'd cap preflop every time. If he's actually a decent player I'm willing to bet you get, AT MOST, 1 extra SB or BB post flop so I don't really see the point in not capping preflop.

I like a check then call down and bet if checked to on the turn/river. This is definitely a case of way ahead or way behind and I wouldn't mind seeing a showdown.

I just read the other posts...you can call me mr. repeat what they said.

arkady · #6 07-21-2004, 02:34 PM

Interesting line pre-flop, I presume you did that for deception purposes, but now have gotten yourself into a bit of a jam given the flop texture.

However, OTOH, him checking into you after he 3-bet is saying something to me and probably would not have been seen had you capped and lead the flop. Given the more passive line you took and the scary board I check/call all the way.

Joe Tall · #7 07-21-2004, 02:35 PM

I'm curious because a few weeks ago I had a thinking opponent (Randy Burgess) w/ KK not cap my preflop 3-bet (w/ QQ) and it [censored] me up something good for the rest of the hand. Should I be doing stuff like this against quasi-thoughtful opponents like myself in the future?

Please, don't play it like Randy did, that hand is totally different (preflop) than John's hand and Randy played that hand wrong on numerous streets.

Peace,
Joe Tall

arkady · #8 07-21-2004, 02:42 PM

i am gonna agree with joe here and think that randy is giving up value by not capping against multiple opponents and missed a turn raise, while John is going for deception and just ran into an ugly flop.

Trix · #9 07-21-2004, 03:06 PM

I check.
Bet turn if checked to, but fold to a CR there. Call down if he bets turn.

I dont see any reason to not cap preflop for deception against a guy you haven´t played much with before. He wont know what hands you cap and which you dont anyway.

JohnShaft · #10 07-21-2004, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Why didn't you cap preflop? Not criticizing, just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's one spot I definitely think about NOT capping with AA/KK (QQ I think is a hand I am not fond of doing it with).
That situation is when you are precisely headsup, and particularly when I have position.

That is about the only situation I will do it in. I absolutely HATE not capping with more than one opponent. And the more you have the worse not capping it is.

Headsup here I am giving up 1 SB by not capping. That is all. But I am also 'telling' my opponent I don't really like my hand THAT much, leading him to believe I DON'T have AA/KK.
If I cap that should pretty much set off the alarm bells to him that I DO have AA/KK (and at the very least AK/QQ).

I didn't think not capping in a situation like this was *anything* unusual to the SS vets...