7CS: Reese versus SM&Z: Tens and Jacks

[Al Mirpuri]

I was rereading the standard texts and I discovered a discrepancy between Reese's chapeter in Supersystem and 7CSFAP.

Reese has you calling the bring-in if their are two overcards behind you to your pair of Tens or Jacks. 7CSFAP has you folding in this spot.

Which do you play?

[7stud]

I fold.

It seems to me that calling is probably the worst of the three alternatives: raising, calling, or folding. You want to play a pair heads up, and calling encourages limpers, which lowers your probability of winning the hand. Limpers will increase the pot odds, so that if you win you will win more, but I think if you run some simulations(which I'm sure Sklansky, Malmuth, and Zee did) you will find that the odds of winning the pot go down faster than the pot odds go up as more players enter the pot.

[patrick dicaprio]

depends on the limit. at low limits i would hesitate to fold as players will call with much worse hands than yours, i would usually raise here. AT higher limits 10-20 and above I would call generally but would raise if the circumstances are right.

Pat

[Michael Davis]

I think this is extremely player dependent, particularly those who have the overcards.

If the players play like they're supposed to, I raise. If they are tough, tricky players, I'm more inclined to pass.

-Michael

[MBTIGUY]

Let me add another point of view, supported by 7Stud - Othmer in Seven Card Stud Poker. I quote:
With eights through jacks, it can be better to raise of fold than call. When you fold, you are done with the hand and have nothing further to consider. A call leaves your hand undefined, and your opponents' future plays are harder to interpret. With a raise, you show strength and your opponents' reactions gives information for determining how to proceed in later betting rounds.
If you are called, you need to see what develops. If you are reraised, you can get away from the hand with only a minimal investment.

[Andy B]

My default play is to raise. I'm sure that there are games where folding is the correct play is to fold. I just can't imagine sitting in one.

[Michael Emery]

I remember I posted an identical post to this about two years ago on here. I was also wondering what most people do with tens and jacks. play according to the S.S. or 7csfap's.
I recall Ray Zee actually responded and said that if you follow the advice in 7csfap's you'll stay out of trouble more often. He recomended the "two or more fold" rule because if you limp like Reese says and one of the higher cards completes behind you, you'll find yourself playing a hand where you never know where your at in.

Mike

[Ray Zee]

i hope your other point of view you are adding is understood by you to be very wrong. especially the last line. anyone playing like this in a decent ante game or not against fools will soon part with their money.

[timmer]

It depends .

Stud is a much to intricate game to make hard and fast rules whether to pump it or dump it. A hugh number of "other" factors come into play.

such as side cards, liveness, styles of play of the opponents holding the high cards and others. your image, their image, etc. etc., ad nausium.

I just dont like hard and fast rules about many 3 card starts in this game.

however with two live OC's behind me in the hands of solid aggressive players I am seriously considering my side cards, open cards and other information avalible.

just my few cents

timmer

[studplaya]

In general I would agree with Mr. Zee's advice and that of 7CSFAP; that being said, further analysis and action would depend on the texture of the game(loose/tight), position and perhaps most importantly the liveness of my cards; if my cards are totally live and the game is fairly tight I would take a stab at raising here and most likely fold to a reraise unless my kicker was a live overcard to the raiser;