AQ outdrawn, with some wierd betting

bilbo-san · #1 07-13-2004, 04:34 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed). I have no read on UTG, he just sat down.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 folds.

Pretty standard imho.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

I felt no neet so slow play this with 2 clubs on the board.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls.

The bet very much surprised me but perhaps the 9 gave him two pair?

River: (10.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Huh? I was at a loss here, I saw the flush of course, but couldn't believe anyone on a flush draw would have bet that turn. So I felt I had to call. A loose call?

Final Pot: 12.75 BB
Hero lost $10 [ Ad Qh ] [ two pairs, aces and queens -- Ad,Ac,Qh,Qc,9s ]
UTG won $24.50, net +$14.50 [ Js Qs ] [ a flush, queen high -- Qs,Js,9s,5s,2s ]

Should I have known this and folded the river or am I just thinking results-oriented? I still can't figure out his turn bet.

SnakeRat · #2 07-13-2004, 05:04 AM

You played this hand perfectly.

The river call is far from loose.

He probably bet the turn because he didnt want to give you or BB a free card.

bilbo-san · #3 07-13-2004, 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You played this hand perfectly.

The river call is far from loose.

He probably bet the turn because he didnt want to give you or BB a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

But why on earth would he expect *me* to give BB a free card, and why would he possibly want to give me the opportunity to charge him more for the card he wants to peel off? I raised PF, I raised the flop, if his hand hasn't improved, what possible reason does he have for thinking he's ahead here?

Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but when you are behind, wouldn't you be more concerned about *getting* a free card (i.e. hoping I check) than giving one?

I understand betting a four-flush with 4+ callers, or betting one on the flop to get a free turn card. I can't understand what he hopes to achieve vs. 2 other players, where it's abundantly clear that I have a good hand. He can't possibly believe I'll fold can he? It's also hard for me to believe that he's so completely ignorant of play up to this point that he doesn't know his pair of queens is worthless.

But maybe I'm attributing way too much intelligence to the player...

kenewbie · #4 07-13-2004, 08:24 AM

Preflop raise: good, cut down on the amount of opponents.

Flop raise: good, you (most likely) have the best hand and you want BB to fold.

Turn raise: good, you can beat a great number of things he can be betting here, and you still want BB to fold.

River call: good, you are ahead here more than once in 11.

k

cjromero · #5 07-13-2004, 10:42 AM

I would have played the hand the exact way you did. And calling his river bet suggests that you have been taking some of the forum lessons to heart.

bilbo-san · #6 07-13-2004, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have played the hand the exact way you did. And calling his river bet suggests that you have been taking some of the forum lessons to heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'd like to think so. That's why I make these posts: to confirm my calls are really from that and not from a desire to just "see his cards", which would be fishy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ScottTheFish · #7 07-13-2004, 11:13 AM

1. Folding the river would be a big mistake.

2. A lot of people will try to get as much money in the pot as they can when they hit their 4 to a flush assuming they will hit it or something. He may have also heard VVP talk about semi-bluffing a flush draw on the WPT and thought he was doing that [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I am seeing a lot of turn bets out of nowhere with weird stuff lately. Sometimes it means they just hit their raggy 2-pair or 2 outer for trips or something, but often they are betting out of nowhere unimproved, it's bizarre.

StellarWind · #8 07-13-2004, 11:43 AM

You played this well. I would seriously object to any changes in your play.

I think the turn bet by UTG is a good effort:

1. He doesn't want a weaker hand like JJ or TT checking through and giving both opponents a free card.

2. He has 14 outs against AK. His semibluff has a real chance of winning the hand by sending KK or KQ to the showers.

3. You reraised because you had top two pair. How unlucky. Your normal good hand is AK or AJ in which case you won't raise. Betting is no more expensive than check-calling.

Whenever you want to check-and-call, ask yourself if betting wouldn't be better. Often it isn't better of course, but you will be surprised at how often betting is best.