Party 15 - KTs on the Button

MarkD · #1 07-10-2004, 02:20 AM

This hand occurred tonight and I was a bit startled by the betting sequence. I don't think I've come across this line very often. How do you guys play the turn / river (if they are related) and why? There was a little discussion about this hand in the IRC channel, but I mistyped the board slightly (stating the 8 was on the flop not the turn).
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

River: (8.83 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.83 BB
Main Pot: 8.83 BB, won by MP2.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.

Results in white below: 
MP2 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP2 wins 9.83 BB.

nykenny · #2 07-10-2004, 03:11 AM

what's wrong?

MarkD · #3 07-10-2004, 03:14 AM

Well, a strong argument could be made for raising this turn.

nykenny · #4 07-10-2004, 03:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, a strong argument could be made for raising this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know, and i don't feel it.

and i think the way you played is very fine by my standard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Kenny

Deorum · #5 07-10-2004, 04:40 AM

I doubt I would have raised preflop, but otherwise the hand
was played well. There really is not much more one can say
about this hand; the plays you made were fairly
straightforeward. I do not know what a turn raise would
accomplish, as your hand has very little showdown value, so
a turn raise to buy a free river if unimproved is worthless.
A raise would cause all the people behind you to call two
cold, which does not make sense because you are on a pure
draw. The only argument I can see for a turn raise would be
to get someone to fold something like KQ or AT, but the
other factors heavily outweigh this, and those hands may
very well be folding on the turn anyway.

ike · #6 07-10-2004, 04:47 AM

No sir! This bet means he has correctly you put you on a draw that may check through and is not changing that read for a raise. If he thought otherwise he could checkraise when he thought he was ahead or checkcall fearing a raise when he was behind. The turn raise does nothing but put more money in when you're behind, especially since you may be 3bet. I imagine he often has something like KJ or even QJ, since he is very scared to give a free card.

steveyz · #7 07-10-2004, 10:21 AM

One hand that you would want to raise against is T9, which is a possible holding. If knew that MP2 has a habit of semi-bluffing betting out the turn after calling the flop then I'd be inclined to raise. Also if this was heads up I'd be more inclined to raise. But given the situation, your play is correct.

Boopotts · #8 07-10-2004, 10:37 AM

No one ever got rich making semi bluff turn raises against opponents who are predisposed towards calling.

soda · #9 07-10-2004, 10:58 AM

The play looks fine, and quite frankly routine. Except for the preflop raise, which, IMO, is hogwash. KT? What were you hoping to drive out of the blinds? T2 and K4? This is a multiway hand, try to see a cheap flop. Now, if you were first in from LP...

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

soda

MarkD · #10 07-10-2004, 12:39 PM

I raised pre-flop for value. I think KTs is worth a raise here for fair share value. I didn't think this pre-flop raise would be debated.