Passive Party 15/30 QQ

soda · #1 07-08-2004, 09:56 PM

My read on the preflop capper was as bad as it gets, solid aggressive. His preflop cap meant AA, KK or AK in my mind. I have 0 read on the BB. I actually just thought he was an idiot, but that's 'cause he called my three bet, so it doesn't count.

Does playing QQ this way cost me anything if I think my opponent has AA, KK or AK, but I'm unwilling to lay down to aggression?

Also, I thought about betting the river as I felt "protected" by the T somewhat. I also would have called a raise on the river by either player had I bet. The reason I didn't bet is that I was afraid of being value raised by AA, KK because the T is so obviously not in my hand. Anyway, I think that was a mistake, not sure about the rest.

Thanks,

soda

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: 
BB shows 7c Ac (one pair, tens).
UTG+1 shows Ad Kd (one pair, tens).
Hero shows Qs Qh (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB.

1800GAMBLER · #2 07-08-2004, 10:03 PM

I'd be really wishing UTG wasn't solid so i could bet out on the river without thinking. However, I think that Ten just might also induce him to call with AK, having got so far, getting 10:1, against a weird line, on a card he probably knows is a bluff card, he just might call.

I find it very unlikely he'll raise AA KK too and i'd have little trouble folding if he did raise. Yet i think the idea of going 1BB and not getting a showdown wont go down well with the posters around here since the pot is ~13:1.

soda · #3 07-08-2004, 10:08 PM

I agree and absolutely think he calls with AK here. It's an obvious bluff card and I've played my hand more like AK/AQ than a pair.

soda

ike · #4 07-08-2004, 11:17 PM

Ya, I like a river bet.

nykenny · #5 07-09-2004, 12:48 AM

Soda,

i usually bet the flop in this situation. this is because since it's capped befroe the flop, his bet would be automatic on the flop. by check-calling, you will not gain any information. however, had you bet, you are more likely to get useful information. for example, if he both just calls, u can bet the turn again...

it is true that someone will also bluff-raise (or for free card, or just being inheret aggressive), but since you are going to showdown in this hand (when QQ flop T high) unless turn and river gets nasty and there is a lot of heat, you will just have to accept the fact that if you are up against AA, KK, you will lose 2 extra small bets. it is even more impportant to bet and 3 bet since there is another player in the hand, BB.

playing weakly (forgive my wording) as you did only feels like a good player in a cold streak being gun shy.

ok, that's enough of me. back to you, we believe in you. you were our hero once before (100K in... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), now don't disppoint us [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Kenny

soda · #6 07-09-2004, 12:51 AM

Good response, thanks Kenny!

I'm still ironing out the weak spots in my game. I thought this hand might be one.

Comments from others?

soda

Josh W · #7 07-09-2004, 01:49 AM

Fine, I'll chime in.

Look, you put him on AK, AA, or KK. If he'd play all of these this way, then...

ODDS ARE HE HAS AK. See, there are 6 ways for AA, 6 for KK, and 16 for AK. Thus, he'll have AK 16/28 times.

As such...you gave him a free/cheap draw to 6 and 10 outs (straight draw after turn). I like your play more if you have KK because then...

6 ways for AA
1 way for KK
8 ways for AK....still the most likely BUT...

Not as likely (percentage wise) as before. And, now you have him drawing to fewer outs (3 before straight draw, 7 after).

I guess what I'm saying is...you played this like a "way ahead / way behind" type of hand, when it's anything but. Not only this, but you still have the BB in the hand, who could have something like 88...you may be allowing free/cheap draws to 12 total outs. That's criminal.

I either checkraise the flop (to get the BB out and set up a 'take it down' turn bet) or checkraise the turn. I'm more passive than MANY players out there, but I don't think that this is a spot for such an approach.

Getting back to your previous question...the Legends of Poker is in August. I'll be around, and a new home owner as of Aug. 15th. If you are even remotely thinking about coming to town, you definitely should....

J

Nate tha' Great · #8 07-09-2004, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess what I'm saying is...you played this like a "way ahead / way behind" type of hand, when it's anything but. Not only this, but you still have the BB in the hand, who could have something like 88...you may be allowing free/cheap draws to 12 total outs. That's criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that someone brought up the gutshot, as well as the BB's hand, as he could well have many as 5 outs that are completely non-overlapping with a probable AK.

In fact, the gutshot changes things enough that it makes me pretty reluctant to check the turn if I had check-called the flop (meaning I'd have to pull an ugly stop-and-go), since I think it makes the good player more likely to check behind with AK, which not only deprives you of his bet but also a bet from the BB, who is almost certainly behind.

But that's a moot point, since I'd lead out or check-raise the flop nearly 100% of the time against the described opponent. I just don't feel comfortable with a plan that requires my checking the turn with a probable better hand against a TAG opponent who is capable of taking a free card/cheap showdown.

Festus22 · #9 07-09-2004, 06:28 AM

Since this comes up frequently, why doesn't the advice in HPFAP apply here? Just because it's Party 15/30? This exact hand is detailed on page 133 (Q-Q against a 3-bet, not even a cap) and S&M say check/call with the possibility of betting the river as the preferred line.

Does the BB nullify that line here? The gutshot an ace picked up on the turn?

I thought soda's play was pretty routine until I read the responses. Why not HPFAP on this one?

1800GAMBLER · #10 07-09-2004, 08:19 AM

I wouldn't bet out because the frequency a TAP raises AK is high (which then makes this hand impossible to play well), also is the freq. he takes a free card which makes me sick.

I also don't really worry about the BB with the hands that are out there/his line of playing i'd be very surprised if he had a lot of outs.