hate folding aces, but felt it was right....how did i play this hand

[die_rich88]

hmmm very interesting...who those who said twopair or a baby flush is unlikely, care to explain? cuz for me if i had two pair or flush on that flop, i would've played it the exact same way, but maybe raise slighlty less.

[Macquarie]

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On the other hand, if you wait until a non-club turn to put the rest of your money in...

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This can't be better than pushing the flop. If we know he's on the flush draw then it's most +EV to push the flop right? So if he's got either a set, two pair, or a flush draw then it still has to be more +EV to push the flop!

I vote fold to the check-raise anyway.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm very interesting...who those who said twopair or a baby flush is unlikely, care to explain? cuz for me if i had two pair or flush on that flop, i would've played it the exact same way, but maybe raise slighlty less.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play that way with two pair on that flop often, then you are a crazy-man.

[fuzzbox]

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On the other hand, if you wait until a non-club turn to put the rest of your money in...

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This can't be better than pushing the flop. If we know he's on the flush draw then it's most +EV to push the flop right? So if he's got either a set, two pair, or a flush draw then it still has to be more +EV to push the flop!

I vote fold to the check-raise anyway.

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With one card to come, the flush draw goes WAY down in value, than with two. Given that after he makes it 50, there is 100 left to bet, if hero does push, then villain is correct to call with a flush draw and pretty much any other hand that can beat hero.
Thus, by pushing we are not really inducing a mistake. If we wait for the turn, then we can save the rest if a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls and villain pushes, and we can call all-in/push-if-checked-to, if the turn is a non-club, then we are often a big favourite against the flush draw/pair+flush-draw combos.

[fuzzbox]

I dont often see villains pushing this hard with made flushes.
Villains *do* push this hard with flush DRAWS though. I call the all-in and expect to see A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with a K/T. Also a possibility is A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with Q/J for a club draw and a gutshot straight draw.

If you plan to fold a blank turn, then you should fold the flop. If you plan to fold a check-raise then its not unreasonable to check the flop.

[die_rich88]

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If you plan to fold a blank turn, then you should fold the flop. If you plan to fold a check-raise then its not unreasonable to check the flop.

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very good point fuzzbox, thanks. I've never looked at it this way.

I know i am not as good as you ( no scarcasm), but how would you would play that flop if you had a baby flush or two pair?

[fuzzbox]

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If you plan to fold a blank turn, then you should fold the flop. If you plan to fold a check-raise then its not unreasonable to check the flop.

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very good point fuzzbox, thanks. I've never looked at it this way.

I know i am not as good as you ( no scarcasm), but how would you would play that flop if you had a baby flush or two pair?

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I guess the old chestnut *it depends* is the best answer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Some options are

Made baby flush - lead flop, hope to get raised and 3-bet all in.
Made baby flush - check/call flop, lead at blank turn and hope to get all-in
Made baby flush - check-raise all in on the flop

I like check/call flop and lead blank turn with two pair. I dont like to check-raise this kind of flop very often (unless its all-in), because if I have a made hand then I give my opponent a chance to lay down his good-but-not-great hand, and if I have a good made hand (like two pair) and my opponent just flat calls, then I really hate the turn.

If I check-raise the flop to 50 with KT, and you call .... then I dont really know what to do on the turn.
Of course having the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in my hand would be nice.

In *your* shoes ... I check the flop. I realise that Im giving a free card, and that the free card might end up costing me the pot, but currently its only a small pot, and I still am likely to have the best hand. However, if Im behind, then Im likely to be a long way behind, and if I get check-raised then I have some horrible decisions in a *big* pot.

I dont like giving a free card when the free card could *bust* me, but a free card is very unlikely to bust me here, because if villain wants to go to the felt when the 4th club hits, then its easy for me to lay down.

[sourbeaver]

If you're going to fold to a turn push, fold the flop check-raise.