I bet...

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
No i wasnt saying this.

OK fine.

One example.

Guy raises u call and flop a small set and has 100bb early in a tourney. Instead of maybe check raising the flop which I bet many will do, or some other type of wait till turn and CR, you could just lead the flop and if he raises reraise. You will not see anyone lay down overpairs to that often. But if you do some flop CR or wait till turn or CR people often will get away from it, or scare cards will come that kill your action.

Heres the key: checkraises are good for maximizing value versus bluffs, but often it is much more important to maximize value versus worse made hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure but cmon man this isn't earth-shattering....ppl c/r the flop there w/ a set so they get some chips out of missed overcards....if you bet into overcards w/ a set, weak players just fold the overcards...

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]


Sure but cmon man this isn't earth-shattering....ppl c/r the flop there w/ a set so they get some chips out of missed overcards....if you bet into overcards w/ a set, weak players just fold the overcards...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Link to this hand? I think the main reason I (and I assume other people) check raise the flop is because it would suck if he just folded to a small bet on the rare occassion that you flop a monster. I would like to add this to my arsenal however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you will flop a monster against a player without much of a hand. You don't deserve a big pot every time you flop a set. Playing to extract the maximum from a tight AK, when that 'maximum' is a flop continuation bet, while letting AA get away easily when AA is the one likely to get you lots of chips is ridiculous.

If you have an opponent who frequently raises preflop and then folds when you lead into him, either you don't lead into him enough or you have an easily exploitable opponent.

I'll checkraise the flop with a set or TPTK sometimes to protect my occasional checkraise bluffs/check raise to pick off continuation bets with middle pair or if I've been caught c-r bluffing recently, but mostly lead into the raiser is a better line. If the flop is ragged and you don't want to bet, for christ's sake, check-CALL to keep AK around, hope for K on turn. But leading a ragged flop will get you plenty of action from overpairs, so again, it is usually the best line.

The point I really like in Strassa's post is that if you are making reasonable lead bets with lots of hands, you become hard to read for a pretty cheap price. You have to check raise a reasonable number of hands, and have to vary your checkraising hands to keep your checkraises from being readable, but you don't have to checkraise a lot, and certainly not too often with sets or other flopped monsters.

[gp?]

the best part about this thread is how the title is so fitting.

Does anyone have the link to this post?

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
you reraise significantly

[/ QUOTE ]
... which is why HOH2 warns against CR-bluffs.

In this position you pretty much have to make a pot-size re-raise to get the OR off the pot.

Good for you you're 8 for 8, but don't count on it - especially not in low buy-in online MTT.

You are basically inflating the pot to stake a substantial part of your stack on one bluff, and against a lot of players it's not going to work if they have any part of the board, or any draw.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[MrMoo]

Interesting post. Thank you. I'm one of those who is guilty of defaulting to a check raise here on the flop.

As a generalization, how much would you typically lead into the pot with? 1/2? 2/3's? How would the flop texture change your bet? Would you tend to push a little harder if an A or K flopped as well?

Lastly, can you think of any situations in your opinion where it would be more appropriate to use the check raise line?

Thanks.

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
advantages and disadvantages of betting into the preflop raiser is discussed in super system. Its something to have in your arsenal.

[/ QUOTE ]

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you reraise significantly

[/ QUOTE ]
... which is why HOH2 warns against CR-bluffs.

In this position you pretty much have to make a pot-size re-raise to get the OR off the pot.

Good for you you're 8 for 8, but don't count on it - especially not in low buy-in online MTT.

You are basically inflating the pot to stake a substantial part of your stack on one bluff, and against a lot of players it's not going to work if they have any part of the board, or any draw.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to check-raise bluff occasionally. Some percentage of the time you check, you have to checkraise, or your checks will give too much information. Some percentage of the time you checkraise, you have to checkraise bluff, or your checkraises will give too much information.

Clearly, the time to do it is not when the stacks are shallow and you are against a guy who will call with any piece of the board.

I was disappointed that Harrington spent a decent amount of time talking about varying the meaning of your 1/2-3/4 pot bets, but basically (in the section you refer to) ignores the need to do the same with checkraises.

Edit: He essentially says - you are risking too much out of position on a move that needs to work a higher percentage of the time than a half pot bet bluff. Fine, but the checkraise bluff will be successful more often than the half pot bet, especially if employed in a spot where your opponent's betting pattern indicates he is more likely than average to fold. You are also much less likely to be rebluffed.

I realize that this post seems out of character with the rest of the thread, including my own earlier post. There is a big difference, however, between usually doing something and always doing it (and between rarely doing something and never doing it).

[DonButtons]

[ QUOTE ]
the best part about this thread is how the title is so fitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, makes the thread that much better, and once you start making these simple moves you will start getting more action on big hands and get people to play back at you also.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. You posted a hand awhile back emphasizing the check-call flop, lead turn line which I like a lot in many situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't remember the last time i took that line. if you're playing against a fairly straightforward villain, when is a good time to use that line? a monster? marginal made hand? draw? etc.