77 river decision - Page 6

keetz555 · #51 10-17-2005, 04:01 PM

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if you're villain and hero has trips, you're only getting 3-bet, but you're not sure he DOES have trips, so you're calling down.

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Yeah, that's a really good line - if you're a major calling station. If you raise with a weak king and get three-bet, you probably fold, and wisely so. Calling stations, on the other hand, are always worried about someone bluffing them, so they call down - "just in case".

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raising here would only fold him, so you should only raise a busted draw or like a 99 or 88- make sense?

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No. It makes absolutely no sense at all. Villain raised and our hero didn't fold. He called with an inferior hand. Calling would have been the wrong move with a king in the hole here. Makes sense?

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ABC players would normally raise a K on the flop when there is no point because you're only folding hands drawing dead or very slim.

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No. GOOD (read: strong, aggressive) players raise with a king here. Calling stations call.

You raise this flop with a weak king for numerous reasons. For value, defining your hand, knocking better hands out...

@bsolute_luck · #52 10-17-2005, 04:25 PM

based on your smart-toned response, you have no desire to learn anything outside of "i have top pair watch me bet/raise/ram jam". your last comment: "For value, defining your hand, knocking better hands out...": what better hands are folding? AK? trip 4s? why would you want to "define" your hand on such a rag flop in this small pot?

okay then let me ask you questions about your line since you seemed unwilling to consider mine:

if you're bet into on this board and you have a weak king and are so eager to define your hand, why is folding 77 so great for you? or why raise on the flop IF someone is going to pay off with 77 and win .5 sbs here when you can raise the turn and get 1BB and double your winnings?

now humor me and take my "calling station" line with the K: the river you're bet into with your King-weak kicker and river your 3rd King: you raise- he folds. you contribute to the rake and win nothing from a bluff draw, weaker 4 or other pocket pair.

OR you raise and are 3-bet on the river, are you folding? i would doubt it with 3 of a kind, so you lose the max.

now adjust the "calling station" line and say you have A4 (just again for humor) which you call the flop with your 2nd pair and BDSD, and then the 2nd King comes on the river. what should you do? obviously fold, except consider that it is possible villain too is on a straight draw or weaker pocket pair: could he call you on this river if you raise? possible, but i warrant that if you read enough on these forums, you'll find bet/folding quite frequently and as a "calling station who only raises with the nuts", you couldn't POSSIBLY be bluffing, they fold, you win. same with 88-99. even better with 88-99, if he calls with 77, you win a lot.

does any of this make sense to you at all?

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No. GOOD (read: strong, aggressive) players raise with a king here. Calling stations call.

[/ QUOTE ] BTW, LOVE this comment. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] i am then a self-proclaimed calling station and love it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

DMBFan23 · #53 10-17-2005, 04:27 PM

keetz,

how small does the pot have to be, in your estimation, before calling with a K becomes the correct play?

keetz555 · #54 10-17-2005, 07:12 PM

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what better hands are folding? AK? trip 4s?

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Yeah. Cute. No, hopefully a slightly better king will fold. Wouldn't you fold something like KT when you're faced with a bet and a raise?

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why would you want to "define" your hand on such a rag flop in this small pot?

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Because I want to take it down. A weak king is a far cry from a strong hand here. Why would you want to slowplay top pair/weak kicker in a family pot?

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if you're bet into on this board and you have a weak king and are so eager to define your hand, why is folding 77 so great for you? or why raise on the flop IF someone is going to pay off with 77 and win .5 sbs here when you can raise the turn and get 1BB and double your winnings?

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Because there are opponents to be heard from. I don't want overcallers. I want position on the turn.

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1. now humor me and take my "calling station" line with the K: the river you're bet into with your King-weak kicker and river your 3rd King: you raise- he folds.

2. you contribute to the rake and win nothing from a bluff draw, weaker 4 or other pocket pair.

3. OR you raise and are 3-bet on the river, are you folding? i would doubt it with 3 of a kind, so you lose the max.

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1. Well, he DIDN'T fold, so I don't see your point. You will get a lot of calls from weaker hands here. Pocket pairs, two pairs etcetera.

2. If I raise and he folds, so be it. In that case, I win the same amount whether I raise or call. And I NEVER think about the rake when I raise. You shouldn't either.

3. Probably not. And that's one of the reasons for raising on the flop. Again, you define your hand. Possible scenario: Flop: he bets, you raise, only he calls. Turn: he checks, you bet, he calls. River: he bets, you call. In this case, you don't raise, because there's a good chance he has a better king.

Conclusion: raise the flop.

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BTW, LOVE this comment. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] i am then a self-proclaimed calling station and love it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Okay. I'm tight-aggressive and I love it. To each his own.

keetz555 · #55 10-17-2005, 07:13 PM

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keetz,

how small does the pot have to be, in your estimation, before calling with a K becomes the correct play?

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I NEVER call with a weak king here. No matter how small the pot is.

#56 10-17-2005, 07:16 PM

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No. GOOD (read: strong, aggressive) players raise with a king here. Calling stations call.

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I'd have to say I really don't agree. Being aggressive for the sake of aggressivness is not always +EV. You have to think about what you're trying to accomplish with each of your actions, and depending on table conditions raising could be ok, but IMO we should take whatever line makes us the most $$$.

DMBFan23 · #57 10-17-2005, 07:18 PM

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keetz,

how small does the pot have to be, in your estimation, before calling with a K becomes the correct play?

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I NEVER call with a weak king here. No matter how small the pot is.

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don't you want your opponents to make mistakes? why let them correctly fold?

#58 10-17-2005, 07:19 PM

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if you're villain and hero has trips, you're only getting 3-bet, but you're not sure he DOES have trips, so you're calling down.

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Yeah, that's a really good line - if you're a major calling station. If you raise with a weak king and get three-bet, you probably fold, and wisely so. Calling stations, on the other hand, are always worried about someone bluffing them, so they call down - "just in case".

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This flies at .5/1, good luck when you get in more aggressive games.

aces_dad · #59 10-17-2005, 07:20 PM

Was wondering how long people were going to argue with him before this question was asked ...

keetz555 · #60 10-17-2005, 07:23 PM

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don't you want your opponents to make mistakes? why let them correctly fold?

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Of course I want them to make mistakes. For instance, I want them to fold better kings. That would be a mistake. Or cold-call with pocket jacks. That would be a mistake too.