limp-folding preflop

[xxxxx]

Mister King is assuming there is two EP limpers which is not necessarily the case. He is ignoring the houserake. Nor does the fact you are getting 6.5:1 at the moment and are not that big a dog prove that it is right to call. You're giving reverse implied odds all the way to the showdown.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Mister King is assuming there is two EP limpers which is not necessarily the case. He is ignoring the houserake. Nor does the fact you are getting 6.5:1 at the moment and are not that big a dog prove that it is right to call. You're giving reverse implied odds all the way to the showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you're coming from as far as the absolute question "Is it EVER correct to limp-fold." I sketched out a common situation with two prior limpers, and admittedly this is not always the case. But if there are no prior limpers, then you've (most likely) already made much more correctable mistake in open-limping, and I do think it was worthwhile to point that out.

IF in fact there are no prior limpers, and it is raised one bet back to you heads-up, you're basically in a blinds-defense type of situation, with the exception that you may have position on the raiser (if the SB or BB put in the raise). I won't go too far into it, but there are a very, very wide range of hands that mathematically you'd need to call with here, and I don't think any of the hands a reasonable player would limp in with in the first place would not be in that range.

At a MINIMUM, you're getting 3.5:1 on a call (if it was folded to the BB, who raised). Sklansky's chapter in HEPFAP on blind stealing/defense outlines the issue fairly well. And in this instance no rake would be collected before the flop betting (at least on Party), so that's not a factor, despite your suggestions to the contrary.

Also, you suggest that a limp-caller is giving reverse-implied odds. Not so, necessarily. Whether reverse implied odds come into play or not has everything to do with what the limper is holding, and what the likely range of hands villian has raised with. You might be very sure that you're ahead, will be paid off, or won't have to call future bets depending on the character of your opponent. To say that in every case, or even most cases, hero is giving reverse implied odds, is incorrect.

Against a tough opponent, with high standards for raising, heads up with no other voluntary $ in the pot, out of position, I am still calling a raise when I've limped in. I am prepared to shut it down if things don't look right on the flop (I whiff entirely and have no draws, and am facing a bet after I check). This is the extreme case, and I still don't see limp-fold being an option. Got it?

[MrJitney]

At the Luxor, they have a $4/$8 game with half blinds. So the big blind is $2, but pre-flop raises are in increments of $4. I think there are situations in this game where it may be correct to limp/fold.

[Stork]

It was a raise-fold, Tommy? That I like even less. Ray probably has a big pair here, but you are getting an immediate 6.5-1 here. So you have to be able to get Ray for at least 1 BB when you flop a set to make up for the 8.5 times you don't. You really don't think you can get 1 big bet out of him?

[sfer]

This has been discussed before.

[bobbyi]

There's also this hand where you were against pokerbabe:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=1169406

[Nate tha' Great]

The list of people who have limped and folded to my raise is as follows:

Chris Daddy Cool
Tommy Vu

That is all.

-N

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
What about in Party's 10-15 blind structure for the 15/30? If you complete in the SB with, say, 2 limpers, and the BB raises, your odds are worse than they were originally (previously 9-1, now 7-1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'll make that play sometimes, especially with a weak offsuit ace or king that has a good chance of being dominated.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
The list of people who have limped and folded to my raise is as follows:

Chris Daddy Cool
Tommy Vu

That is all.

-N

[/ QUOTE ]

cute signiture at the end, is that going to be a new thing?

-CDC

[Bob T.]

I can't think of any situation either. But when my opponents do it, I remember who they are, and I raise their limps more often.

Today, I played a hand online, where there where three limpers, and I raised out of the small blind. There was a flop, that mostly missed my hand, and I bet, then I noticed that it was headsup, and the remaining limper folded. I don't think that I've ever seen two limp/folders in one hand before.