is this legal to do?

[Nomad84]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop AA is a 78% favorite over the BEST possible holding (JTs where the As dont have a matching suit).

[/ QUOTE ]

FTR, JTs is not the best possible hand in this spot. A slightly better hand is something like 65s. Of course, that means aces go from a 78% favorite to a 77% favorite, so it doesn't matter that much anyway...

Oh right - because two of the possible straight cards are gone already. Therefor wouldnt 78s be the best because no straight involved would help his AA? Or would 56s, 67s and 78s all be the same?

Not like that half percent makes that much difference in the short term.

[ QUOTE ]
I prob will be beaten by someone (with AA) if it turns out to be a multipot, so i try to scare them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

215,979 games 179.765 secs 1,201 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.9036 % 30.70% 00.21% { AA }
Hand 2: 07.6864 % 06.90% 00.79% { random }
Hand 3: 07.5952 % 06.80% 00.80% { random }
Hand 4: 07.6991 % 06.90% 00.79% { random }
Hand 5: 07.7020 % 06.91% 00.79% { random }
Hand 6: 07.6367 % 06.85% 00.78% { random }
Hand 7: 07.6649 % 06.88% 00.78% { random }
Hand 8: 07.7399 % 06.95% 00.79% { random }
Hand 9: 07.6923 % 06.93% 00.76% { random }
Hand 10: 07.6799 % 06.88% 00.80% { random }

Any hand is obviously more likely to lose vs more hands, so i ran a short PS sim with AA vs 9 random hands. You need greater than 10% pot equity to call ten handed. With aces you have 30% vs ten random hands. with kings the figure drops so somewhere around 25% vs ten random calls, making that a correct call also based on pot equity and EV.

And I think risk management is a silly thing to talk about. Getting it all in with aces 3-4 handed is +++++++++EV, nothing close to betting 1:1000 on a 1:1001 shot.

aces=never fold pf

[WhiteWolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh right - because two of the possible straight cards are gone already. Therefor wouldnt 78s be the best because no straight involved would help his AA? Or would 56s, 67s and 78s all be the same?

Not like that half percent makes that much difference in the short term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Splitting hairs territory, but 65s and 76s are probably better than 78s because they counterfeit the 5-high wheel straight that AA can make.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh right - because two of the possible straight cards are gone already. Therefor wouldnt 78s be the best because no straight involved would help his AA? Or would 56s, 67s and 78s all be the same?

Not like that half percent makes that much difference in the short term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Splitting hairs territory, but 65s and 76s are probably better than 78s because they counterfeit the 5-high wheel straight that AA can make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: 76.9675 % 76.81% 00.16% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 23.0325 % 22.87% 00.16% { 7h6h }

Hand 1: 76.9791 % 76.83% 00.15% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 23.0209 % 22.87% 00.15% { 8s7s }

Hand 1: 76.9440 % 76.76% 00.19% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 23.0560 % 22.87% 00.19% { 6s5s }

Only a rounding error difference in the 3. Although you get .07% ties with the 65s

[darydarling]

As in poker the answer is always..."IT DEPENDS"

Tournament: The TDA rules are pretty specific, if you expose your hand it's dead.

Cash game: IT DEPENDS.

If there is action still pending, or it's not heads up it's bad etiquette to show your hand even if you just show 1 card.

There are still people in the pot, let's say you toss an ace and the raiser has kings. Now the guy in the cut off with A/J now realises he's drawing to at best only two more aces so he folds costing the player with kings money.

IT DEPENDS PART 2:
Heads up. when it's heads up, some poker rooms allow this.
I've done it in live NL games before to guage the reaction of a player who has reraised me on the flop, or put me all in.

IT DEPENDS PART 3:
House rules. Every casino has their own set of rules.

IT DEPENDS PART 4:
The floorman on duty.
As we all know, you can play in the same casino day in and day out and get different decisions by the same floorman let alone different floormen on different shifts.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
And I think risk management is a silly thing to talk about. Getting it all in with aces 3-4 handed is +++++++++EV, nothing close to betting 1:1000 on a 1:1001 shot.

aces=never fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

In a tournament, +chipEV and +$EV aren't always the same thing. You could contrive a final-table situation in which it could be correct to fold aces pf, or where you would want your opponents to fold if you have AA.

This isn't that relevant to the initial post because these situations are so absurdly rare that if you don't already know enough about ICM to know what these situations are, then you're better off not thinking about it. But it is theoretically possible.

Yeah i was referring to cash, but I understand the concept for tournament play also. However, I still don't think I'd be able to lay down aces pf even for all my chips until I have a lot more experience and confidence in my ability to outplay my opponents.

I believe HoH may have covered this situation, but also stated (or maybe I read somewhere else) that only top players that sure of their skill prevailing in the long run should make such a fold preflop.

Either way, I can't see myself folding aces EVER preflop. If thats a leak, so be it. LOL.

Steve

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, is it legal when in the position that Doyle Brunson describes in SuperSystem? Basically, you are down to being the only player left to act - calling all-in bets. Is it legal to flip your cards over at that point in order to see how your opponents react? Would such a flip ever be deemed a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - that has the same effect as a string bet - gaining additional information. If you do that your hand will be ruled dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, when SS was written, this was a perfectly acceptable play. Now, in most cardrooms and all tournament play, this is illegal. Even where it isn't illegal, its considered unethical.

[ QUOTE ]
Tournament: The TDA rules are pretty specific, if you expose your hand it's dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really!? I guess I must be an idiot. Plese explain the following TDA rule. Because I am confused.

35 Expose A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.

Thanks!