Insert Catchy Title Here

[quix0tic]

he bet near pot size on the flop... i have a hard time figuring him for the flush as most players will try to get more value from it. the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] seems likely. the river all in is suspicious b/c it doesn't seem like he wants a call. even the higher set or small flush might bet for value here. this is one of those situations where the realm of possible hands diverges into either a very big hand or a pure nothing bluff. on another note, this is why i prefer playing cash games live. i feel i gain greatly in EV by having some physical reading ability, specifically for hands like this.

[theBruiser500]

Very tricky play, I think I like. First of all on the river people are saying you are making a crying call or something, but the way you play it I think you should be happy getting your money in there, you could have trapped yourself but that's the way it works when you play it like that. I don't know if I could play it like you did on the turn though, when you call the pot is $740 as you say, that's a big pot to fool around with out of position . Maybe you had some read and you felt what was going on in the hand which is cool, but without that I'd have a hard time taking your check/call line on the turn.

[Richie Rich]

I think c/r'ing the turn would've been much better, for a couple of reasons. But since he didn't do that, I think check-calling down was the next best +EV move.

[Richie Rich]

How could you?...

[Rick Nebiolo]

x

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Results to come later today. But, quickly...

Before you reply, give some real thought to his likely holdings and how he might play those holdings. Some of the lines that have been suggested, IMO, accomplish nothing positive, given his range of hands.

Thanks for the replies.

ML4L

[knifeandfork]

hello ml4l,
great hand to post i hate to disgrace it with my amateur opinions there is certainly a wide range of hands your opponent could have and a wide range he could put you on. in slight dissent you have a tough hand to play here and i really like the way you played it. if im your opponent im shaky with any hand short of a king high flush. calling pot size bets in this hand would cast a lot of doubt in my mind if i was him.

hands he might play this way i think are AhQ, KhQ, QJs,AA, KK, JJ, 77, small suited etc he may have flopped the flush but it just doesnt feel like it unless its a small one. in the end though i think he had qjs, AQ,KQ or AA. if he had a mediocre hand or no pair on the flop he may have been betting %80 of pot to pick it up cheap then hit his queen and tried again having improved. on the river if he has the flush or bigger set he has correctly put you on a set and as a paying customer.kudos to him unfortunately if this was the case.

i think the river bet was a pocket pair with a heart or two pair hand i hope he cant call me bet and you dragged yourself a nice one.

if he played this way with a bigger set then major kudos to him. i think your description of him as ntt ntl and aggressive thinking mean you are good here far to often to fold. obviously changes tons vs a rocky type or maniac. dunno if i added any to this or not but i had fun thinking about this one at least
jason

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
Before you reply, give some real thought to his likely holdings and how he might play those holdings. Some of the lines that have been suggested, IMO, accomplish nothing positive, given his range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it would be helpful to know a little more about the opponent and also if this was a full ring game or shorthanded - to me that's an important element.....I'd like to know what kind of hand villain could be calling a raise with in MP pre-flop.....

here are some thoughts though......

on the flop, checkraising doesn't make a whole lot of sense because if he reraises, it leaves you in a quandry about whether he's holding a big draw, a made flush, a higher set, etc - and if you start showing strength, he might let go of his draw......

on the turn, leading out is definitely a possibility - don't let him draw for cheap, could get to a cheaper showdown if he's got a medium-strength made hand....bad part is, again, if he's real tricky or already has the flush, you blow yourself off the hand.....and again, by showing strength, you might either make him lay down his draw and also MOST IMPORTANTLY stop him from bluffing the river with a busted draw.....check/calling works if you have the intention of calling any non-heart river bet.....check/raising works if you don't want to let him catch a cheap heart, but, you lose more when your behind....

and given the above, the river plays itself....

it's an interesting hand, and tough given the wide range of hands villain could have.....I guess the problem is that he'd play the nuts the same way......and if that's the case, could you have found out sooner?.....maybe....I guess what it comes down to is that you were willing to back your stack on a read that you had the best hand unless another heart came, so if that's the case, check/calling all the way is the best line.....I just think the danger is that on the river when he bets, a busted a draw is the ONE hand you beat, whereas the SEVERAL other made hands all beat you (except for MAYBE QhJx), though, I don't know, maybe he wouldn't bet a higher set there......

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies. I think this was a GREAT hand to discuss, and I hope to get more replies (I was disappointed that some of the big guns didn't weigh in on this one). Here are my thoughts:

Generally speaking, I think that this hand can be played in one of two ways. One, try to get the money all-in on the flop against a hand such as an overpair or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J. Two, wait until the river to get the money in and possibly get away from the hand depending on what comes on the turn/river and the action. What I did NOT want to happen was to get some or most of my money in out of position on the flop or turn. So, I checked the flop. Had the original raiser bet, I might have check-raised and tried to induce an overpair to move in on me.

But, the good cold-caller bet instead. In my mind, his range of hands included: a bigger set, a flush, a jack with or without a heart, the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], or some other random semi-bluff (e.g. 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). I was fairly certain that he did NOT have AA-QQ; with such a deep stack, he would reraise before the flop (especially considering how light the original raiser might be). So, if I check-raise the good player, he lets go of most hands that I beat and pushes with most hands that I don't (he might also push with something like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J). I decided that check-raising was the LAST thing I wanted, because I'm up a creek on the turn if he flat-calls (I'm also not in great shape if he reraises; basically, if I check-raise, I would pretty much want him to fold, and that runs contrary to my philosophy of not wanting people to fold when I have a set). So, I called.

When the turn comes blank, betting never crossed my mind. I made my decision on the flop. I was going to risk losing the pot in an attempt to continue to extract money from a worse hand. If he takes a free card, so be it. I think that a stop-and-go here is not consistent with his range of hands and what he would do with them. When he bet, it defined his hand a little better for me. He had a set, a flush, QJ (probably with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]), or a hand containing A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. If I check-raise all-in, I only get called if I'm beat. Again, not a situation I look for.

On the river, it was a matter of trying to get value out of a hand that would call a bet but check behind if checked to (A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J) or to try to induce a bluff. In his range of holdings, I thought the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] was fairly likely, so I decided to check and hope that he would bluff with it. When he bet, visions of flopped flushes danced in my head, but I clearly couldn't fold. The hand played out how I wanted it to...

My opponent showed A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and I doubled up.

Thanks again for the responses.

ML4L

[cornell2005]

interesting post.

the type of thinking that goes for this hand in a high stakes game is so much different than in a low stakes game. i think it is interesting that people's gut reaction is that your play is horrible because you arnt "charging for draws" by check calling the whole way down. whether or not your line was the best one, it shows how important putting your opponent on a range of hands is before deciding on your strategy. personally i agree with your assumptions about this guys range of hands, and his probable reation to any show of force beyond the flop. the only part i somewhat doubt is your decision to start off the hand by checking it. if i chose to check, i would be planning to check raise. when that flop comes, you have no reason to not believe that the preflop raiser will not raise if you bet, with high pockets and the ace [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. given that you check/called the flop, your line is definently defendable.