Fold the flop here?

[MaxPower]

By your equity argument you should call with any two cards here. There are no two cards that have less than 11% equity against most ranges of hands that your opponents can have.

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By your equity argument you should call with any two cards here. There are no two cards that have less than 11% equity against most ranges of hands that your opponents can have.

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The equity argument is only half the equation, with implied odds making up the rest of the argument.

[ghostface]

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Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

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AQ, KQ, A9??, no flush possible and some shitty 2 gap

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Remember, there is not the risk of domination with Q9 as with hands like KJ, A-10, etc. in this spot.

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AQ, KQ, A9??, no flush possible and some shitty 2 gap

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Please read the whole thread before responding. I have stated that domination is not AS big a concern, not that it is of no concern whatsoever. Domination is more likely with hand that include aces and kings than it is when your high card is a queen.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
The equity argument is only half the equation, with implied odds making up the rest of the argument.

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We are talking about limit poker, aren't we?

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The equity argument is only half the equation, with implied odds making up the rest of the argument.

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We are talking about limit poker, aren't we?

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Yes. Implied odds with an aggressive raiser and loose-ish players behind are very high here, particularly in my relative position.

[Neal_Schon]

[ghostface]

But how many ppl do you see cold calling raises with things like QJs and QTs, or even their off suit counterparts. I think the best you can hope for on this flop is a OESD or two pair. I dont know how often OESD's flop but I know two pair is pretty low.

[Catt]

Wow! For someone who was positively giddy with this board and the collective resources it provides to all, things have really turned around quickly, haven't they? I think a big part of the reason why is bringing an attitude such as this:

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I posted this hand to help some of the weak-tightish posters here with their preflop thinking, and to help some of the loose callers with postflop thinking. I was trying to help, and it's too bad it turned into a flame war, but that seems to be the way of things here. People very rarely seem to be able to diagree about strategy without being jerks about it.

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Or this:

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I want you in my games, Chief. I'd run you over.

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I think this is a pretty easy fold pre-flop. Our opinions can differ. But running a hot-cold pre-flop sim and counting on implied odds is not really a good way to evalute one's pre-flop decision. It is part of the bigger picture, but only part of it.

For example, I can make the same argument in a similar circumstance and one that is ludicrous, but it still satisfies the criteria you're laying out to justify the call here. TAGish UTG, with reasonable pre-flop standards, opens. Four others, also with reasonable PF standards coldcall. There's a player or two who is reasonable and semi-aggressive, but the others are generally slightly loose and mostly passive post-flop -- they're pretty easy to read, so you'll generally know when they're sitting on a strong hand. You're in the BB with 94o and the pot is laying 11:1 to call here and you're closing the action. 9% equity is all you need to make this call, and think about the bets you'll make up when you hit the flop hard; the implied odds are very solid here -- just add them up and I think you'll be surprised. And our equity?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

10,381,392,216 games 86.734 secs 119,692,303 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 17.2797 % 16.07% 01.21% { 88+, ATs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 16.0954 % 15.00% 01.10% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 3: 17.0302 % 16.97% 00.06% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 4: 18.9301 % 17.33% 01.60% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 5: 19.3282 % 17.99% 01.34% { 99-22, ATs-A8s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 6: 11.3365 % 11.14% 00.20% { 94o }


Folding this 94o pre-flop would be an error. A clear error, obviously.

[ArturiusX]

Now if the hand were Q9s, I'd call preflop. But Q9o just doesn't win enough pots.