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#2
06-21-2005, 11:19 PM
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Re: I have top pair, I call.
What does the coordination have to do with it? I would think it makes opponents more likely to call a bet as more draws are out there, and we collect money when we have the best hand. If they suck out, that's poker.
Is my thinking off? 
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#3
06-21-2005, 11:48 PM
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Re: I have top pair, I call.
[ QUOTE ]
What does the coordination have to do with it? I would think it makes opponents more likely to call a bet as more draws are out there, and we collect money when we have the best hand. If they suck out, that's poker. [/ QUOTE ] I think coordination has a lot to do with it. If the board were even more coordinated, say 9TQ two-toned I'd lean more towards check/fold. Although getting good odds I may still call. On a QJT single suited board I see this as an easy check/fold. Basically, more coordination lowers your equity here. Decent draws likely being out there combined with the fact that we're not really sure if our hand is best is a definite reason to go passive on the flop the way I see it.
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#4
06-21-2005, 11:55 PM
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Re: I have top pair, I call.
Like I said in the Rory AJo post Joe - I think Tommyesque check-calling down will lose money in the long run unless you can find folds or worse hands that will call you. The only thing debateable is what's the long run?
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#5
06-22-2005, 12:38 AM
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am i missing something here?
i might be alone here
but when it gets back to you on the flop, there are still 4 others in. i put your chances of having the best hand at this point around 1/2. the chances of your hand being the best on the river (assuming everyone stays in) is probably 1 in 3 or 4, unless you're against a lot of draws and 2nd, 3rd pairs. so if this is true, shouldn't you c/r the flop and charge everyone else to draw? if you had 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] you would based on putting in money as a 1:2 shot and getting 1:4 on your money, and i dont see how this hand is much different stealthcow-
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#6
06-22-2005, 12:58 PM
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Re: am i missing something here?
[ QUOTE ]
when it gets back to you on the flop, there are still 4 others in. i put your chances of having the best hand at this point around 1/2. [/ QUOTE ] c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either.
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#7
06-22-2005, 02:31 PM
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Re: am i missing something here?
[ QUOTE ]
c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either. [/ QUOTE ] I shouldn't reply to anyone with 'sadly Boston' in there location, but this is so spot on, it needs to be quoted. Well done!
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#8
06-22-2005, 02:40 PM
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Re: am i missing something here?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either. [/ QUOTE ] I shouldn't reply to anyone with 'sadly Boston' in there location, but this is so spot on, it needs to be quoted. Well done! [/ QUOTE ] Now tell us you're not overcalling the river. And, please, continue with the "forum checks." (FWIW, I'd have traded the 13 run 8th for the 60 BB's I dropped last night.)
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#9
06-28-2005, 10:19 AM
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Re: am i missing something here?
[ QUOTE ]
c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either. [/ QUOTE ] I think that the math works out as well to call. If you raise, the pot odds become ~6:1 for someone on a flush draw, which is only a 4:1 dog. Is that right? If so, it seems like they'd be correct to call your raise anyway. What if we change this to having aces, instead of queens? Does the concept of protecting your hand kick in at that point, and you raise to knock out the people who aren't on a flush draw? [Note: I'm not arguing with you. I just want to make sure that I understand why this is the right play.]
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#10
06-28-2005, 02:04 PM
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Re: am i missing something here?
[ QUOTE ]
What if we change this to having aces, instead of queens? Does the concept of protecting your hand kick in at that point, and you raise to knock out the people who aren't on a flush draw? [/ QUOTE ] No, raising to protect is what you do when you have a good but vulnerable hand AND the raise will give many draws incorrect odds. A pair of queens is in more need of protection than a pair of aces since no overcard can come to an ace. So a raise would most often protect you from people with overcards or drawing to two pair and gut shots.
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