30-60 Hand

[mike l.]

"I just wonder what people put me on that they would fold their 2 overcards here getting 7.5-1 on the turn."

a set, A8 or AT come to mind, as well as hands like Ax that's paired, AK, AA or KK, so that 7.5 to 1 is not all that appealing. i bet you dynasty will agree with your position on this though.

[mike l.]

forget about the sb and clark's bizarre definition of him as passive preflop yet loose aggr and tricky postflop. put yourself in the sb against a decent to very good player in clark's spot. do you really all push so hard all the time with AQ in this spot? it's just awful if you do.

i think it's very important to have at least some sort of a default sense of what you do in these scenarios because this one is really standard and typical. but so many of you seem confused and flustered; it seems like youre playing this hand in isolation where you do every
tricky/weird/wrong thing you can to win the pot.

here's the way i see it and i dont think it's close. the play is always 3 bet preflop (and almost always from the bb as well!). bet (and once in awhile checkraise) the flop. then give up on the turn (although every say 25%-35% of the time or so you should bet the turn and checkraise like every 5% of the time) with a check-fold. keep in mind you will be checkraising the turn when you hit an A or Q sometimes as well.

id like to know exactly where and why people think im wrong on this.

[Paluka]

Mike I agree with your general sentiment, although I'd usually fire again on this turn. Sometimes AQo don't win. That's ok, because sometimes it does.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
So most fold to a turn raise, but a couple of you 3-bet.

I'm surprised that some think betting the turn is a mistake. Maybe I'm wrong, but checking with the intention of folding seems like a bad play.

Back to the hand:

Flop: Th 5c 3s. You bet, Clark calls.

Turn: 8d. You bet, Clark calls. 2 to the river for 6.5BBs.

River: 5d. Your action.

So far we have a few check-callers, and a few check-folders and no bettors.

Bonus points for those who can put me on a reasonable range of hands here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have a pair and do not want to risk a turn 3-bet from an agressive tricky player as you know that he knows that you are agressive yourself. If you had two pair or better you would raise the turn looking for a reraise. So you just call down with your A5s, 66 or JT (less likely) because you know you'll be better 50% of the time. There is still a chance that you have a big A (for the same reasons as mentioned above), so I check/call the river.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
forget about the sb and clark's bizarre definition of him as passive preflop yet loose aggr and tricky postflop. put yourself in the sb against a decent to very good player in clark's spot. do you really all push so hard all the time with AQ in this spot? it's just awful if you do.

i think it's very important to have at least some sort of a default sense of what you do in these scenarios because this one is really standard and typical. but so many of you seem confused and flustered; it seems like youre playing this hand in isolation where you do every
tricky/weird/wrong thing you can to win the pot.

here's the way i see it and i dont think it's close. the play is always 3 bet preflop (and almost always from the bb as well!). bet (and once in awhile checkraise) the flop. then give up on the turn (although every say 25%-35% of the time or so you should bet the turn and checkraise like every 5% of the time) with a check-fold. keep in mind you will be checkraising the turn when you hit an A or Q sometimes as well.

id like to know exactly where and why people think im wrong on this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well for one I think your spot on!

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
here's the way i see it and i dont think it's close. the play is always 3 bet preflop (and almost always from the bb as well!). bet (and once in awhile checkraise) the flop. then give up on the turn (although every say 25%-35% of the time or so you should bet the turn and checkraise like every 5% of the time) with a check-fold. keep in mind you will be checkraising the turn when you hit an A or Q sometimes as well.

id like to know exactly where and why people think im wrong on this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because if I were your opponent, and you played like that, I'd have the right odds to call the flop bet with virtually any two, since I could pick up the pot so frequently when you missed.

[cwl]

[ QUOTE ]

id like to know exactly where and why people think im wrong on this.


[/ QUOTE ]

you seem to be equating clark taking a card off on the flop in this situation with being beat a very high percentage of the time. that is the aspect of what your saying that i dont get. maybe your right and thats an accurate read of clark's call but i feel like often my opponents will call a flop bet here with a reasonable number of hands im ahead of and many more that i have 6 clean outs against. admitedly, his knowledge that im passive pre-flop and the board lacking draws makes his call here a bit more ominous. it could be im not properly adapting my view to how clark specifically would play in this spot given his read of me but it just seems to me like you are a little overly pessimistic after he calls the flop bet.

[Vehn]

am I the only one who bets the turn virtually all the time in the SB's shoes?

[Coilean]

This is one of those situations that lives in quicksand. I'll initially fold if you raise me on the turn, but if it seems to be happening too often (say, more than once every 3 times), I will work in a 3-bet sometime to see what happens then. If this wins me the pot, then our duel has ascended to the next level until you 4-bet or call me down with a scraggly pair, at which point we're back where we started from.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
id like to know exactly where and why people think im wrong on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

only against very good players does your strategy fall apart. clark can call preflop, smooth call the flop and just outplay you on the turn. done and you've folded the best hand quite likely far too often.

against NORMAL people, you're plan isn't far off b/c they'll release underthat pressure where clark won't
-Barron