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#72
09-26-2005, 04:06 AM
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Re: America won the vietnam war
[ QUOTE ]
Contries in Europe, Africa, and South America. It's impossible to say which ones becasue it didn't happen. [/ QUOTE ] Well, Chile and Argentina had Facist governments throughout and after the Vietnam war..i guess it's not communism, but.. 
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#73
09-26-2005, 07:43 AM
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Re: Foolish Choices
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The problem with Iraq is that we failed to achieve our goal of stable constitutional democracy. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, this does not pass muster. First our goals in Iraq were and are shifting (desert) sands. Second, your stated goal (if it is indeed our goal today, or ever really was our goal), is incompatible with the essence of Americanism -- which is freedom. Unfortunately, the essence of Americanism today is more about commerce than freedom -- a very big mistake. [ QUOTE ] Well Implemented Democracy > Dictatorship > Badly Implemented Democracy [/ QUOTE ] Much stronger than anything else is FREEDOM. Free people decide what is best for them, occupied people do what the occupiers want or are labelled insurgents and terrorists (in Iraq, in Vietnam, etc). Most people dont really care about the form of the government they live in. If they have the freedom to make individual choices, live in peace and security, and an environment to raise their kids and earn their livelihood. This was not the case for the average Vietnamese when they were occupied by the Americans and is not the case for the average Iraqi under the American occupation now (the same problem drives the Palestinian Freedom Fighters/Terrorists). [ QUOTE ] Lastly, there are times when you shouldn't allow societies to make disastorous choices. [/ QUOTE ] Are you saying that we should have forcibly prevent Bush from winning the election? Talk about disastrous choices. Perhaps MoveOn would have been right to bear arms and give the presidency to Kerry. No doubt the world (and America) would have been better off. Another anecdote, when India's Mrs Gandhi lost her election in 73 (I think) she considered ordering the Indian Army Generals to take charge of the country rather than transfer power, as she considered the choice of the people to be disastrous. The moment from all accounts was very close. You have to be very careful with using force to "correct" "disastrous" choices. It is the essence of the thinking of the fascists.
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#75
09-26-2005, 03:54 PM
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Coup de tête
[ QUOTE ]
There are times when you shouldn't allow societies to make disastrous choices. [/ QUOTE ] Who decides if a choice is disastrous? Surely you have something bigger than society to suggest.
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#76
09-26-2005, 06:05 PM
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Re: Days of infamy
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- A war between A and B is considered won by A when country A occupies or dictates terms to country B. Clearly, America lost the war in Vietnam, in military and political terms. [/ QUOTE ] I cannot fathom how you think the US lost the Vietnam war militarily. I agree that we lost it politically, but to say we lost it militarily is pretty ignorant. [ QUOTE ] - America's objective in Vietnam was ostensibly to contain communism but, in fact, aimed at containing a national liberation movement. The Vietnamese were fighting against the French colonialists for decades - and the Yanks, instead of coming in as liberators, simply took over where the French left off. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think this entirely accurate. The situation was far more fluid and complicated than what you portray here. [ QUOTE ] - To compound their mistakes in Vietnam, and probably out of pure pique, the United States refused to support Vietnam when Vietnam tried to put down the murderous regime of the Khmer Rouge and stop the massacres. Instead, the US allied itself diplomatically with the Khmer Rouge in all the world forums. Days of infamy. [/ QUOTE ] Um, the US actively attempted to eliminate the Khmer Rouge.
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#79
09-26-2005, 08:06 PM
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Re: Foolish Choices
1) The Vietnamese communist party has not helped serve the needs of the average vietnamese. You need only look at vietnam today. They serve themselves at the expense of thier people, like all communists.
2) I'm not sure what our "underlying agenda" was. I thought it was to kill the communist and set up a successful country there. Conspiracy theories have always stuck me as rediculous. 3) Complete incompetence and ignorance on the part of Washington isn't a refutation of the idea that international intervention can't do any good. Moreover, it is a call for more competent and informed decision making. Wether that is politically feasible is debateable, but is an entirely different debate.
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#80
09-26-2005, 08:31 PM
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Re: Foolish Choices
I know your not an anarcho capitalist like PVN. You believe in public law enforcement, forced taxation, or any of a variety of other measures that curtail freedom.
"Most people dont really care about the form of the government they live in. If they have the freedom to make individual choices, live in peace and security, and an environment to raise their kids and earn their livelihood." If this is true, the Vietnamese never should have fought us. Communism, Theocracy, and Facism don't provide freedom or prosperity for thier inhabitants. Under a constitutional democracy and a market economy Vietnam would be more like Taiwan, Japan, or South Korea. Instead they have a corrupt and incompetent government that jails anyone who resists and makes business and progress impossible unless you bribe officials and break the law. The guy we supported in SV was a monster, but not much different then the war criminals we put in charge of Japan after WWII. We would have disposed of him and instituted reforms once the insurgency ended. If the Iraqi's stopped blowing themselves and thier infastructure up all the time they would have functioning utilities and plentiful commerece by now. They hurt only themselves in this conflict. If the Americans leave what will they have gained other then a bunch of repressive Mullahs or warlords. They'll have gained no freedom, only leashed by members of thier own race/religion. You shouldn't raise arms against a government unless it is a total disastor. Bush and Kerry were virtually the same, which makes one wonder what the big stink is all about. There are currently no big issues debated seriously in America today. Facism, communism, and theocracy represent such disastorous choices that represent a danger to not just the originating society but also its neighbors that it can't be allowed. It's a high bar, but there exist times when fighting it is necessarry.
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