WSOP $1500NL - Hand vs. Scott Fishman

[LuvDemNutz]

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I would have looked at my hand after the flop and checkraised all-in take it down there and then.. and hope he didn't flopped his set..

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I don't really like this. I think I should bet enough to make it incorrect for him to call but not so much that he has an easy fold of any hand that doesn't have me beat badly.

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This is an interesting point - and I understand what you are saying but, I think I might've checkraised all-in here as well.

First of all, pretty much the only realistic hand that has you beat badly is 44 which you have 4 outs twice against (not great, but not terrible).

Secondly, my main concern would be a flush draw. Putting in a large checkraise as you did, you leave yourself in a very tough spot if a heart hits the turn. As it was, you lost half your stack and crippled yourself for the rest of the tourney.

I think the key to this hand was that you were OOP. In position this hand plays much differently.

But OOP I think you should be happy taking down a smallish pot as opposed to losing half your stack.

In fact the more I think of it, I like 2/3 pot-sized lead, followed by a reraise all-in if raised.

[SpeakEasy]

I would lead with a big bet on the flop (pot), or check raise even bigger. I do not want to see the turn card, I want to shut this down and win this on the flop.

[Shammu]

I would call here, and aside from the math(I will leave that to the math wizards), and from the pattern of the betting, he did not have a flush, if he did, I don't see any reason for that big raise on the turn, he did not have a monster hand like AA, KK, QQ etc, he is not a biggener and knows that 101 poker tells you not to slow play these kin of hands out of position, it was a pure bluff, the guy entered the pot knowing that he was going to steal it later.

[SossMan]

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I will accept arguments that you could have played it differently, but anyone who advocates folding after betting out 1500 on the turn w/ 2400 left behind should seriously examine their game.

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I'm not advocating the fold, but I am re-evaluating my game. Hence, the original post - I didn't post it crowing about the great laydown I made against Scott Fishman. I made the play at the table because my analysis at the table told me I should fold. I put Fishman on too narrow a range of hands and put too little emphasis on the chance he was bluffing/semi-bluffing in this spot.

The math I did in this thread clearly shows me that I should have called even though, as you noted in one your posts below, it's a bad spot to be in. I made a lot of mistakes in my decision process that lead me to this fold and I will own up to them - this is exactly why I posted the hand.

In one of your later posts you imply that you like my turn bet of 1500 (at least that's what I interpreted your statement) so just to make sure I understand your feelings on this hand - you like everything except the fold and you think the fold is horrible - correct?

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i wasn't really directing the comments at you. I know why you posted the hand, it's an interesting and relevant hand. I don't hate the 1500 bet so long as you are not going to fold. I would have probably made a smaller checkraise on the flop, but given that you didn't, I'm likely pushing on the turn to protect my hand and to allow myself to not outthink myself if he checks behind and a scare card comes on the river.
You may lose a little EV if you think a check will get him to bluff at you and you pick off the bluff, but I'm okay with that if I think that there is a chance that a terrible card is going to come on the river to either beat me or scare me off the best hand. Yeah, so I push the turn.

as a side note: people wonder how named pros accumulate chips...I can assure you that nobody on god's green earth is folding to my push getting nearly 4:1 w/ top two pair.

-andrew

[SossMan]

next time post this hand in parts: post the flop, then post the turn action. The turn action is dictating poster's flop recommendations.

[bugstud]

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I will accept arguments that you could have played it differently, but anyone who advocates folding after betting out 1500 on the turn w/ 2400 left behind should seriously examine their game.

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I'm not advocating the fold, but I am re-evaluating my game. Hence, the original post - I didn't post it crowing about the great laydown I made against Scott Fishman. I made the play at the table because my analysis at the table told me I should fold. I put Fishman on too narrow a range of hands and put too little emphasis on the chance he was bluffing/semi-bluffing in this spot.

The math I did in this thread clearly shows me that I should have called even though, as you noted in one your posts below, it's a bad spot to be in. I made a lot of mistakes in my decision process that lead me to this fold and I will own up to them - this is exactly why I posted the hand.

In one of your later posts you imply that you like my turn bet of 1500 (at least that's what I interpreted your statement) so just to make sure I understand your feelings on this hand - you like everything except the fold and you think the fold is horrible - correct?

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i wasn't really directing the comments at you. I know why you posted the hand, it's an interesting and relevant hand. I don't hate the 1500 bet so long as you are not going to fold. I would have probably made a smaller checkraise on the flop, but given that you didn't, I'm likely pushing on the turn to protect my hand and to allow myself to not outthink myself if he checks behind and a scare card comes on the river.
You may lose a little EV if you think a check will get him to bluff at you and you pick off the bluff, but I'm okay with that if I think that there is a chance that a terrible card is going to come on the river to either beat me or scare me off the best hand. Yeah, so I push the turn.

as a side note: people wonder how named pros accumulate chips...I can assure you that nobody on god's green earth is folding to my push getting nearly 4:1 w/ top two pair.

-andrew

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this is my point exactly. c/r builds a large pot OOP, one that I feel very uncomfortable folding unless I'm against MAYBE Dewey Tomko, lol.

[schwza]

i'm surprised to see people talking about a smaller c/r. if hero c/r's to 900, it's only 575 to villain, with a pot size of 1475. when did making 1/3-pot bets on heavily coordinated boards become cool?

[bugstud]

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i'm surprised to see people talking about a smaller c/r. if hero c/r's to 900, it's only 575 to villain, with a pot size of 1475. when did making 1/3-pot bets on heavily coordinated boards become cool?

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when you're playing in person

[MarkD]

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next time post this hand in parts: post the flop, then post the turn action. The turn action is dictating poster's flop recommendations.

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Yes, I completely agree. I considered doing that too but decided against it.

[MarkD]

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as a side note: people wonder how named pros accumulate chips...I can assure you that nobody on god's green earth is folding to my push getting nearly 4:1 w/ top two pair.


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I've considered this and it pisses me off a little. It also pisses me off that survival in the tournament may have slightly clouded my judgement on this hand (leaning towards the fold). I'm not sure about this factor and like to think it had no affect but it certainly could have.

Anyways... back to the hand. So instead of betting out 1500 on the turn you would have just shoved all-in? I did not consider that - it seems almost too strong in the sense that there aren't many hands that can call our turn push that we actually want to call it are there?