2/4 Check-up Flopping the Nuts and not even considering FPS lines

[Chris Dow]

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You should always come out betting an Ace high flop headsup. It's the card that gives you the most fold equity. If I held rag-rag on this flop, I would come out betting. They will fold a high enough % of time for this to be instantly profitable, regardless of what cards you hold.

Also, about the 77 hand. You are even money against 2 overcards before the flop. But that's only if the hand goes to showdown. So, you are looking for a way to win this hand before it goes to showdown, thereby increasing your equity from 50% to something significantly higher. What is the best way to increase you chance of getting your opponent to fold before showdown? Well, I think most advanced players (I'm not saying that I'm one of them) would tell you to raise preflop and bet any flop. I don't think there is any other way that is even close.

Also, sometimes your 77 will be a favorite against the limping hands like 22-66 or X2-X7. So, against these hands you are raising preflop for value.

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Ok so this could be wrong but I'm throwing out my response anyway. Out of position I am not going to just bet every time I am the bb and I go hu to the flop and an ace pops. I think you are misinterpreting the fold equity here because I am the bb in an unraised pot. (they aren't going to believe I have the ace) So that is my take there.

Moving on to how to play 77-22 out of the BB when there is only one limper. With 88 I would raise so therefore I'm going to talk about 77-22. As you correctly pointed out, in a hot and cold to the river sim, these pairs are even money against two overs. Ok now let's throw that away because this hand isn't going to play out as check check check see who wins. You point out that these hands have very little preflop equity against most hands because of this, and that is correct so I am checking preflop for deception purposes rather than raising because I have a pair. I do not like raising from the BB with any of these hands in this situation because it ties me into betting every flop. That bet definitely seems to favor my opponent in my mind since he gets to see if he made any pairs. (I'm not going to really go into avoiding a LRR because that's not very frequently a concern but it is another reason not to raise preflop against certain opponents) So basically we have that by investing 2 bets preflop your opponent invests 2 bets preflop and then for 1 bet on the flop you have a pretty decent shot at the 4 preflop bets but if called you're drawing very thin (and might not even be behind but pretty much have to assume you are) and if raised you're just losing 3 bets in what was an attempt to win your opponents two bets (and the sb). I understand the desire to really push any edge in this forum because it is important. However with 77-22 in the bb and just one limper we are looking at a 1.25 BB pot. I do not think extra aggression is warranted here. I like to just check and take shots at flops that are very rainbowish with maybe only one over and particularly, bulletless. I do not think it is a mistake to not push preflop since the potsize is 1.25 BBs. I have expounded most of those reasons in this post and would really want to hear from others especially if they think it is a mistake to play this way out of the BB. (I think it is better to play by checking preflop from the BB for reasons like deception and the fact that you are oop in this situation but I suppose I can't argue that it is immensely better than raising and trying to take it down on the flop)

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I shall tell your boss
That you do not work, but post
You'll be fired by noon


wow, I'm seriously impressed with myself for that. if only I wasn't ripping off diablo. maybe I'll post some lymericks later

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Limerick you douchebag.

How's the studying going? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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damn, I had it limerick at first, then changed it

bad

[brettbrettr]

Hand 1, I don't mind the complete considering he's a tight player limping in EP (you really should have mentioned that originally). I don't like the the c/r at all as there's no way youll be able to get 3 bets in on the flop and you're going to knowck out the BB and all the other reasons people mentioned.

Hand 2: I'd raise pre-flop and bet the flop no matter what comes. In a HU pot you've got to take some initiative.

[Chris Dow]

Thanks sfer very constructive, you are right that I didn't raise what is 50/50 to be the best hand preflop, that might be a slight mistake in the long run but it's pretty close (the better argument for raising preflop that I have heard is that the bb is going to call with crap that I have dominated, now that is a good point). You're also right I shut out the big blind, he does seem terribly likely to call one bet in this example. Again thanks for dropping by to expound.

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Thanks sfer very constructive, you are right that I didn't raise what is 50/50 to be the best hand preflop, that might be a slight mistake in the long run but it's pretty close (the better argument for raising preflop that I have heard is that the bb is going to call with crap that I have dominated, now that is a good point). You're also right I shut out the big blind, he does seem terribly likely to call one bet in this example. Again thanks for dropping by to expound.

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I like you Chris Dow
But you take things personal
Please just let it go

[Chris Dow]

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Hand 2: I'd raise pre-flop and bet the flop no matter what comes. In a HU pot you've got to take some initiative.

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I am really not buying this. I'm of the impression that most 2/4 fish mistakes are that they call too much. I can punish that more by keeping the pot small right now. I think inflating the pot in what is probably a coinflip if looked at hot/cold is just padding the pot for them and lessening the mistakes they will make later. I posted more about this in a previous post so I am definitely still looking for more input about why it is so crucial to be so aggressive in situations like these preflop and on the flop.

[mr pink]

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Ok so this could be wrong but I'm throwing out my response anyway. Out of position I am not going to just bet every time I am the bb and I go hu to the flop and an ace pops. I think you are misinterpreting the fold equity here because I am the bb in an unraised pot. (they aren't going to believe I have the ace) So that is my take there.


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can't you for once, just admit that someone other than yourself is right. he took a lot of time to write out that response and instead of reading it, thinking about it, and understanding it, you just throw it away by saying that "you are misinterpretting the fold equity here" you are the one who misinterprets the fold equity in this spot. they don't have to believe you have an ace, all they have to do is miss the flop bad enough not to call. how often do they have to fold for a bet here to show a profit?

for [censored]'s sake.

[afk]

edit: comments for hand one
Hey Chris Dow,

I haven't read much of the thread but I think you should raise preflop (punish the open limper, and allow BB to pay if he wants to see the flop), you have the best hand here. Also I think your flop check raise is really bad - you've shut out the BB and probably scared the other guy now. Just bet out on the flop, you don't really want this to get checked around.

Pinky is new here
But he's still better than most
At stating his case

[spydog]

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I do not like raising from the BB with any of these hands in this situation because it ties me into betting every flop.

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I don't want to pick on you, but this is very weak-tight thinking. Anyone with experience playing shorthanded will bet the flop HU after raising preflop 100% of the time. They aren't doing it because it's cool. They are doing it because it's the most profitable play. Certainly, some flops are better than others, but it's still more profitable than check-folding.

Being uncomfortable in these HU situations is not unusual. But, to grow as a poker player you must recognize the profit potential in making these plays. I don't really think raising 77 in this spot is pushing a small edge. I think it's probably +.50BB EV over checking preflop.