Question for Atheists and maybe those who believe in God.

[motorholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not believe in God, what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God? There has to be more reasons then "it is against the law that man made". Evil things can range from simple crimes of stealing from people, to murder. If you are smart enough to not get caught committing the crime, why not do it? You will not be punished in the end.

I do not know if anyone has predictions or more important statistics on this, but, has there been any studies that have tried to determine what percentage of people who commit crimes believe in a God. I guess a lot depends on economic situations for most people, but if you really believed you would be sent to Hell for commiting certain crimes would you be less likely to commit the crime then if you did not believe in Hell, or God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s hard to comprehend the level of thinking from which your comments emerge.

Just reflect a bit on what you posed.

“If you do not believe in God, what factors influence you to not do things that are deemed evil, or wrong by people that believe in God?”

Does this mean that you do “right” because of “God,” and wonder what kind of monster YOU would be without his guidance?

Here is what I ascertain from this one sentence


You assume that those things considered wrong by people who believe in God differ significantly from those things considered wrong by people who do NOT believe in God. I believe that in general, most atheists (and non-atheists) instinctively or intuitively know right from wrong, and behave accordingly.

Let me pose a question to you. Would you be surprised to know that atheists are very glad that region exists? It helps protect us from the senseless and selfish behavior of some (and I emphasize “some”) individuals who might otherwise engage in activities that would be harmful to others if they had no doctrine or internal moral compass to guide their behavior.

Based on you comment above, I truly hope you NEVER stop believing in God.

[jimdmcevoy]

I've read some posts here (not all of em some are long) and I think there is something everyone is missing as part of the reason atheists don't go around killing people when they feel like it.

Part of the reason is our intincts.

I reckon that we've evolved to want to not kill random people we meet. From an evolutionary perspective it's -EV except in certain circumtances to kill a random human.

I also think we've evolved to want to kill other people in certain situations, like war. Organized killing like this can be +EV from an evolutionary perspective.

But I'm going a little off topice here, my point is that we are born with the urge not to kill some random dude we meet, and I think most people are just coming up with reasons to explain why they don't want to kill people, like there was actually a time in there life when they would kill people for little reason, and then they thought it through, and logically came to the conlusion that they shouldn't

this thought process reminds me of how religious people start off believing in whatver religion they believe in for whatever reason, and then use their higher conciousness to try and prove what they believe in, instead of using their higher conciousness to figure out what to believe

/end rant

[Dan Rutter]

I am not assuming anything. You can know the difference between right and wrong and not act on it. Also someone can have much less motivation in his or her own mind to act on the right side of things. One of these motivations could be so they do not have to spend their afterlife in hell. People who believe in a God may have all the same reasons that Atheists have to act correctly in terms of right and wrong. This could be keeping humanity going in the right direction as some have mentioned, or not putting a burden on their family once they die. They also probably have an extra incentive that since they believe in an afterlife they do not want to spend it in Hell.

I am not suggesting people who believe in a God are less likely to commit crimes, because obivously that is not the case. I was asking a question, not suggesting anything. I guess you could simple my question down to apply to Atheists, and people who believe in God.

With no threat of punishment for your actions, what stops you from acting in ways that may be wrong or evil in the eyes of other humans?

[toots]

I have a few gut reactions to the base question:

1) Childish.

Doing good or bad based mainly on fear/anticipation of punishment/reward is the most infantile level of moral behavior, and most people outgrow it before becoming adults

2) Arrogant

The question seems to assume that your big boogey man in the sky somehow gives you a corner on the morality market. It doesn't.

3) Shallow

It doesn't take too many thought processes for a person, even one operating at a relatively childish level of development, to realize the reciprocal benefits of adhering to the golden rule.

But, to answer the question directly:

Why would I, as a non-god believing person, act in ways that you consider "good" or "moral"?

Well, assuming we can agree on at least the big strokes (don't kill people, don't take their stuff, treat people with respect and dignity):

1) Enlightened self-interest. I treat others as I'd like to be treated as part of a social contract by which we all benefit.

2) Compassion. As a feeling human being, I know how much I dislike being hurt, and having compassion, I therefore have little desire to make someone else feel that hurt, even if I think they might deserve it.

3) Narcissism. I just don't want people to think I'm a poopiehead, and one of the best ways to do that is to avoid acting like one.

4) Instinct. As others have mentioned, there is some evolutionary imperative that makes our race just slightly more successful if we don't all kill each other off before we've even had a chance to spawn.

I'm sure there are others, but acting in a bad or evil way is every bit as much against my nature as I'm sure it is against your nature, and those reasons are just as compelling as "because god told me."

[motorholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not assuming anything. You can know the difference between right and wrong and not act on it. Also someone can have much less motivation in his or her own mind to act on the right side of things. One of these motivations could be so they do not have to spend their afterlife in hell. People who believe in a God may have all the same reasons that Atheists have to act correctly in terms of right and wrong. This could be keeping humanity going in the right direction as some have mentioned, or not putting a burden on their family once they die. They also probably have an extra incentive that since they believe in an afterlife they do not want to spend it in Hell.

I am not suggesting people who believe in a God are less likely to commit crimes, because obivously that is not the case. I was asking a question, not suggesting anything. I guess you could simple my question down to apply to Atheists, and people who believe in God.

With no threat of punishment for your actions, what stops you from acting in ways that may be wrong or evil in the eyes of other humans?

[/ QUOTE ]

But your question is prefaced with the clause, "with no threat of punsihment for your actions...."

You are trying to set a context for one's actions by linking the answer to a fear of punishment.

This is one key area where Chritianity falls down for me - too much emaphasis is placed on fear of consequences rather than doing good ONLY for the sense of good.

I was a Christian and now I am not. So, I can say that from my perspective my "self-awareness" of right and wrong never really changed whether I believed in God or I did not. I like to think of myself as an honest person, and try to approach life that way. When I fail, I feel ashamed for letting MYSELF down. I think it is a much stronger motivation when you are answerable to yourself for your actions. I can't get wired up to be accountable to a higher being that I have no reason to believe exists. So, that's what keeps me from being evil - an obligation to myself.

As an aside, why would I seek guidance from a God who (in my view, if he exists) does not seem to accept accountabity for his actions. If I understand Christianity correctly, God created all things, and God is good. Yet an angel turned bad an become the devil. Who created that angel and gave it the capacity to do evil? The creator of all things, God.

Perhaps the big guy should have fixed this part up before he moved on, but somehow we all have been required to atone for the angels "sins" in a way I'm not quite sure I quite understand. If god shows up and said" sorry folks, I need to do a recall on one of the angels," then maybe I'll have some time for him. But right now he seems to be ducking out on his repsonsibility - or more accurately, dumping it onto mankind. As such, I'm not so inclined to seek guidance from him on right from wrong. And, if he wants to punsish me for that, well this "loving" God can go right ahead and do so.

[SNOWBALL138]

This is like asking "how do you know how to play poker if you haven't read super/system?" The answer is: there are other sources for knowledge of poker besides the "bible" of poker.

How do you define morality? Isn't morality just a feeling about how the world should be and an opinion on how people should behave? You can derive these beliefs from god but you can also be taught them from someone else or come to your own ideas.

I'm an atheist, but that doesn't stop me from having sensibilities about how the world should be. This is actually a pretty straightforward topic.

If you look at different "christian" nations, you will notice different crime rates, sex crime rates, property theft rates. You will find the same thing through a comparative study of muslim nations.

Morals a lot to do with religion but they are also effected by class/race/gender/nationality.

Just curious: How does your question apply to American christian presidents who routinely committ outright war crimes? Should we question their faith?

[jmgurgeh]

First of all, threat of retribution is not a sufficient, necessary, or even a very effective means of controlling people, as has been shown time after time. People act good out of preference for acting good, or vice versa. Why do I abstain from doing evil things? Because I don't want to be evil.

I think the problem is when somebody falls into the middle ground. They aren't sure if something is really bad or they don't have a very strong conviction, and they end up rationalizing it to themselves. Not that you implied this in your post (just as an aside), to think that atheists fall into that category more than theists is insanity.