I bet... - Page 5

EverettKings · #41 08-30-2005, 09:04 PM

Lemme get this straight....

Basically you're telling people to stop insisting to see the aggressor act first. That it takes a lot of moves out of your arsenal if you won't take the lead until he's acted.

I think I see what you're complaining about, but I think people have less of a problem leading out in limped pots or pots they raised themselves. But they get tentative when it's still on someone else's command.

Is that it? Some more examples would be good. Most decent players learn that they can lead sets (and otherwise play them fast) when the conditions are right. But this surely applies to many other spots.

Kings

tom441lbk · #42 08-30-2005, 09:17 PM

it also helps if you are known as a frequent ck'raising player(hard to be known as online) then switch gears and start leading pots. I did this live and produced alot of good results and am now mixing it up and doing diff things with opponents of diff aggression levels.

-Tom

Jason Strasser · #43 08-30-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why am i giving a free card on the flop instead of c/r'ing?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why:

If you are too shallow to get away from AJ on a tptk flop then fine CR is probably optimal. However if you are deep enough you need to maximize your value versus hands that are beating and also keep the pot smaller versus hands you are behind. There are also not a ton of free cards which hurt you. I guess you are looking at between 2-6 outs for the villain typically.

To get into really deep specifics are kinda useless because everything is so situational, but the key idea is that the smaller you keep the pot on the flop the more flexibility you have to outplay your opponents. If you CR the flop so often they fold hands you beat and dont fold ones that beat you, so they are the ones playing well. Plus if they are ahead the pot is often huge on the flop and to see showdown will cost a ton. If you check and call the flop you can either feed the aggressive villain more rope, or lead the turn and fold to a raise from a tight player who would not raise you with a worse hand, etc.

Tourney players are often too concerned with giving free cards and pricing players out of draws, when the really important thing is to maximize value versus hands that can pay you off and get away from hands you are behind, instead of collecting a few extra bets when your opponent is making a continuation bet and then folding trash.

-Jason

tom441lbk · #44 08-30-2005, 09:42 PM

so what do you do with AJ when you lead the flop and get raised, or you check/call and lead turn the get raised on turn

if i get raised on the flop, depends on the villain
raised on the turn i'm dumping it more than likely

-Tom

Jason Strasser · #45 08-30-2005, 10:25 PM

I play poker.

tom441lbk · #46 08-30-2005, 11:12 PM

forget these things are harder that stt [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

-Tom

EverettKings · #47 08-31-2005, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If people are going to get stuff out of your posts, you could expound on your points a bit more. You know, on occassion. When you feel like it. Please.

Kings

Jason Strasser · #48 08-31-2005, 12:07 AM

Oh everett.

Come on, you bet with TPTK and get raised. There is obviously no correct answer here as to how to proceed. My post above expounded on the idea that I was trying to get to where you will have more opps to outplay ur opposition using stronger lines

LethalRose · #49 08-31-2005, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If people are going to get stuff out of your posts, you could expound on your points a bit more. You know, on occassion. When you feel like it. Please.

Kings

[/ QUOTE ]

he just cant tell you what line he will take. it depends on tons of varibles, thus the general response.

schwza · #50 08-31-2005, 01:22 AM

don't listen to the hate. i'm finding this thread very educational.

consider this case:

folded to CO (3k) who opens to 525 with blinds 100/200. i (3k) call with AJ in the BB. pot is 1150 (no antes).

flop is J74r.

i would c/r on this board 100% of the time. the only time i wouldn't is if i think villain is uber-aggressive and would ocme over the top of my probe, but i don't think that i've ever had that read.

i would check on 99%+ of boards given the pre-flop action, and c/r if i hit a J, usually check call with an A, and check-fold a strong majority of the time if i miss. i understand how your points apply if you and villain have 12k instead of 3k. do they apply at 3k stacks, or when you're that shallow is it good to check any flop?