Preflop Pop Quiz:

[trainslayer]

Nice post. I've recently been rethinking my preflop play also. Had a ~200 BB downswing recently so I got out SSHE and "really" reread preflop concepts. I also made me a handy dandy "play chart" that I keep in front of me not so much to play by as an instant feedback method to check myself when I'm not sure I did the "right" thing. Have managed to recover all but ~30 of the downswing. (Haven't read any other replies yet and started to not post my answers in order to save face if needed, but what the hell. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] )

1.) Raise
2.) Reraise
3.) Raise
4.) Fold
5.) Check
6.) Raise (wasn't real sure bout this one, could call also)
7.) Fold (pot too small)
8.) Raise
9.) Fold
10.)check
11.)Call
12.)Fold
13.)Fold

[Shillx]

08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

[Chris_P]

1.) Fold
2.) 3-Bet
3.) Limp
4.) Cap
5.) Check
6.) Limp
7.) Fold
8.) Raise to steal, fold to a 3 bet.
9.) Fold
10.) Raise to take control and get rid of the limpers positional advantage
11.) Fold
12.) Fold
13.) Fold

if there are any glaring errors with those answers could some one point them out, cheers.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold 88 first in on the button?! Jesus, what kind of rake structure are you playing? 50% of the pot get's raked?

Sorry, but I think that's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold 88 first in on the button?! Jesus, what kind of rake structure are you playing? 50% of the pot get's raked?

Sorry, but I think that's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, no matter how big the rake is I'm pretty sure this move is +EV. If the rake is so high that it becomes -EV you should probably be playing at a different poker site.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
08.) Folded to you: 33 on Button

Raise

Contrary to what many people say, the most dominating factor in making this decision is how much the rake is. For example, if the BB gets dropped after the flop, you would need a very good hand indeed to raise here (you would also need a very good hand to defend too so it is kinda a paradox, but against a loose player you should fold a hand like 88 imo). Even if the SB gets dropped you should fold this imo. On party where the rake will be nil unless the hand gets out of control I think raising is an acceptable play.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold 88 first in on the button?! Jesus, what kind of rake structure are you playing? 50% of the pot get's raked?

Sorry, but I think that's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is folding 88 on the button a bad play when you are up against a BB who will always call preflop? Let's say that you are playing 2/4 at a B&amp;M and they drop the BB + SB if there is a flop (SB goes to the jackpot for example). Since the BB will always call, there is always a drop. Also assume that the BB will only play on if he has us beat after the flop. If he is behind on the flop he will fold and if he is ahead he will check/raise (and you will fold).

You are essentially risking $6 to win $2. If you get check/raised, you are risking $6 to win $0. If he has a random hand, he will outflop us roughly 20% of the time.

EV = 2*.8 - 6*.2 = + $0.40 = + .10 BB

Meh.

This comes from Abdul's site:

With a Draconian rake, like where the big blind gets dropped once the flop comes, you would need about JJ or better to open on the button!

Brad

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />

You are essentially risking $6 to win $2. If you get check/raised, you are risking $6 to win $0. If he has a random hand, he will outflop us roughly 20% of the time.

EV = 2*.8 - 6*.2 = + $0.40 = + .10 BB

Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is a +EV situation meh? That's like saying it's worthless to cap the nut flush draw on the flop with 2 callers, because you're only getting 0.0491 in +EV by both other players calling (assuming they won't fill up).

Ed Miller Says

99% of the time when someone says, "I try to keep my variance low," or, "I avoid making risky plays/raises to protect my bankroll," I hear, "I don't really understand limit hold 'em." It's that simple.

Maybe this is that 1% of the time. Please explain to me if it is.

[einbert]

If Abdul says that it is -EV, it probably is. This guy really knows what he is talking about.

However, I would argue that in most online games, the rake is small enough in proportion to the stakes that openraising 22 is +EV on the button.

In a brick and mortar game, the rake is much higher, so I could see folding here.

I also want to say that I think your simplification of the postflop play (while of course a simplification) is pretty bad. You are going to make a ton of money when you flop a set and BB hits the board, usually at least 2.5BB. You are also going to make money when BB wrongly calls the turn with 6 outs, which he will do sometimes (even an expert player will make this mistake IMO). In reality, you have position therefore you are going to make less mistakes than him on average even if he is significantly better than you postflop. I think you have a hugely +EV situation postflop against an unknown (randomly selected) player.

[Shillx]

I really wasn't trying to make a point with the 88 hand because it would be hard to find a game in which it would be correct to fold 88 on the button. It certainly wouldn't be correct in any online game (where the rake doesn't kick in until the pot gets fairly big).

What I'm really driving at is that the rake can take some +EV moves in theory and turn them into -EV moves. It would be very difficult to make open raising 88 OTB a -EV move. It would probably be fairly easy to make rasing 33 on OTB -EV in certain B&amp;M's. So if raising 33 OTB is a thin value play with no rake, you should understand that it is probably a losing play with the rake. That is all.

Brad

[mmbt0ne]

Ah, ok. That makes sense then.