Question for Atheists and maybe those who believe in God.

[twang]

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Suppose your best friend had a brand-new, spankin' SNES. With Chrono Trigger still in the set and everything. Suppose you could steal it without him ever finding out it was you.

The risk/reward ratio is mathematically and precisely zero.

Would you do it?

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In short, no.

There are two reason why I wouldn't:

1. If I actually would steal his game, I can't figure out how I could get away with it. The risk would be far greater than the reward.

2. I would think that stealing his SNES would undermine the social contracts that keeps our society ticking and that this eventually would lead to the collapse of everything that is great about civilization. Basically, I don't want to contribute to making this world a suckier place than it already is. Obviously, the risk is far greater than the reward.

But since this is a hypothetical situation where no real world consequences or facts apply, I guess I would steal it, compensate him with a Porsche Boxter and then let his hot mom make sweet love to my 12-incher (while he was out driving the Porsche of course). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

/twang

[Victor]

why dont i go around killing people and stealing?

the same reason i dont eat mcdonalds.

i dont want to. it doesnt make me feel good

[ThisHo]

Once again -- thanks for the thoughtful exchange.

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As I understand it, though (and correct me if I'm wrong), all of mankind is still held accountable for Original Sin, or Applegate (the Eden kind, not Christina--I'd like to be held...nevermind. ). To atone for this sin, a person must accept Jesus as the Christ, be baptized, live a good life in accordance with the tenets of the Church, etc.

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Semantics here but... a person can not atone for their own sins. Jesus Christ offers forgiveness/mercy/grace through his death on the cross. It his HIS deed alone that allows us to be forgiven of the sins. We can't make up for it.
To answer your question though - A person simply needs to accept Jesus as Lord to be forgiven. Baptism is NOT a requisite for entrance to heaven. It is a step that Christians are encouraged to take as it is an outward sign of your commitment to Christ, but it is not required. Living a life that follows the rules set out by Jesus/God in the Bible is not a requisite. As has been said previously by other posters - the basis of Christianity is really a relationship with Jesus/God where you are striving to follow His will for your life and He is providing guidance and blessings and discipline along the way. The relationship is often compared to a father and child. Its not about what you do - its about what you believe. If you believe that Jesus is your saviour, the Christ, and you are in relationship with Him then you are probably going to work on not doing the things that He has said are harmful to us and to our relationship with Him. Christianity does not require living in accordance with the Tenets of "The Church".

But how can you say that you are a follower of Jesus if you don't follow His rules? Well.... That's the thing, if you are a real/true follower of Jesus you're going to TRY to follow the plan that He lays out for your life. But don't get hung up on the rules. The New Testament Bible is actually very freeing. Paul's letters talk a LOT about Freedom in Christ. Are there things that are considered sinful, yes. Is everything that you think is considered sinful actually considered sinful, NO (see example in my last post about HAVING to go to church on Sunday -- not a requirement).

The point the Bible makes about sin is that we all have sinned. It doesn't distinguish that one sin is worse than any other and it doesn't state that commiting one sin (say cursing or lying) is less bad than committing 10,000 sins (say genocide). It says that sin is sin and that the wages of sin is death and that anyone who comes to Christ and confesses his sin and accepts Jesus as savior will be forgiven of whatever sin(s) have been committed. You are not then required to live a sinless life the rest of the way. You'll be forgiven even if you commit the same sin again and again -- provided you truely truely truely are repentant of the sin and that you truely have accepted Jesus into your heart and accepted his forgiveness and mercy. That part of it is strictly between you and God!

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Not a trap at all, and I gave up trying to convert the masses a long time ago.


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VERY glad to hear this (that its not a trap).
Your point that right/wrong are somehow hard wired into us is valid. But here's my question : WHY are we hard-wired like that? Did our creator hard wire us that way? How did we become hard wired with a (very broad and general) sense of right and wrong?

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Incidentally, and just for clarification's sake, the God of the Bible does command his followers to kill others, on a fairly regular basis. But only in the Old Testament; in the New Testament, we have the kinder, gentler Christian God who preaches love and compassion. This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history, but this is true of any belief system, including atheism.

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hmmm.... my Old Testament is (embarrased to say) a bit rusty. There are LOTS of wars in the Old Testamant and God clearly commanded His chosen people (the Jews) to take the promised land that as their own.

You are correct that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE shift between the old and new testaments. Jesus came as the Messiah, the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies and the law of the old testament. Its not a "kinder gentler God", its the same God but reaching out to all of mankind through His only Son. The loving caring God is there in the old testament as well.

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My own viewpoint, which is sadly not shared by the vast majority of the world's religions, is that there is no right or wrong faith--only a right or wrong way to live one's life. I do try to plant the odd seed of thought within a theist's mind, yes...but only so that they can think it over and come to their own conclusions on the subject.

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It is true that every religion believes that they are the ONE TRUE religion. I can't disagree with that at all. Its a part of religion and as I said before it all too often has led to conflicts in human history with tragic consequences.
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This teaching has still been warped by sick individuals to justify murder throughout history

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YUP! We humans is jacked up man! Even those of us that follow Christ are jacked up and we do dumb dumb dumb things sometimes. This unfortunately muddles/skews the view of the Gospel... God Loves You! He wants to have relationship with you. He has a plan for your life. He loves you so much that He sent His Son to die for your sins.

I'll tell you one thing though... I'll give a different Wendy's a try one of these days! You've convinced me of that! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Enjoy your day!
ThisHo

[dr_venkman]

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God Loves You! He wants to have relationship with you.

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When I was young, about eight or so, I tried making friends with God by inviting him to my house to watch the world series...he never showed

~ Jim Carrol, "The Basketball Diaries"

[ThisHo]

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ThisHo, you do realize your outlook allows for someone who lives a righteous life, like myself, to go to hell for eternal damnation, but a devout Catholic like Hitler to go to Heaven?

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Being a "devout Catholic" doesn't get you into heaven. Please reread what I wrote.
Simply attending mass, and other sacraments of the Catholic church do NOT get you into heaven. Accepting Christ as your savior - believing that He came to Earth as God's son and died on the cross to forgive you of your sin and allowing Him to be lord of your life... that get's you the grace/forgiveness/mercy of God and allows entrance to heaven.

You can't earn your way in... that's the message of the Gospels.

ThisHo

[sexypanda]

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Religion is a dangerous, corrupt tool. One day people are going to realize morality and religion as being two seperate things.

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[mythrilfox]

I define a devout Catholic as someone who has accepted Jesus Christ into their heart. I don't know what you define a devout Catholic as. Someone who does the deeds? Hitler did more than the motions, he did everything that the Bible teaches grants entrance to Heaven.

Sure, he killed 6 million people, but that's a forgiveable sin.

[The Goober]

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If you are smart enough to not get caught committing the crime, why not do it? You will not be punished in the end.

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Every time I hear a religious person say this, it makes me feel very sorry for them. Are you really so unfeeling that your only motivation is fear? Humans are a wonderfully evolved species and we have an innate sense of empathy for other humans. I don't (or try not to) do things that hurt other people. Why? Because as a human, I care about other people - its just an intrinsic part of who I am, and its in all of us.

I think the saddest part about christianity is that it takes the best qualities of humans away from us and attributes it to some other being.

[ThisHo]

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I define a devout Catholic as someone who has accepted Jesus Christ into their heart. I don't know what you define a devout Catholic as. Someone who does the deeds? Hitler did more than the motions, he did everything that the Bible teaches grants entrance to Heaven.

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Let me start with the "Devout Catholic" question. My point here is that going to mass, receiving communion, following the rituals of the Catholic Church are not enough to get you into heaven. The Bible teaches that you have to do 1 thing and 1 thing only to enter heaven : You have to have a personal relationship with Jesus as your Savior and Lord of your life. So it doesn't matter if you're Catholic/Baptist/Presbyterian/Non-Denominational/Evangelical
-- what matters is that you believe in Jesus. You truely believe that He is the Son of God that He came to Earth and died on the cross for your sins and that you accept him as your Savior and allow him sovereign control over your life. That's it... there isn't a mystical ceremony or any list of tasks that has to be done. Its faith in Jesus.

OK.. on the the Hitler question
{sigh} - why is it that when the forgiveness of Christ is brought up the "can God forgive Hitler" question always comes up? This seems to me the extreme test of the forgiveness of God. Can God accept into Heaven a man that was personally responsible for the torture and horrifying deaths of 6million people?

Here's the problem:
If I say "Yes. Assuming that Hitler realized what he did was wrong, repented (truely repented - not went to confession and confessed his sins to a priest and said eleventy-billion Hail Mary's as penance), but truely asked Jesus/God to forgive him, and truely believed that Jesus came to earth died on the cross for all the sins of mankind and then believed in Jesus as his savior, then YES. Hitler would be able to be in heaven. God's love and forgiveness for each and every one of us as individuals is THAT big. It surpasses all understanding."
Then you will likely respond -- OHHHHHH, so all I have to do is live my life however I want and right at the end of it say "Jesus I believe in you forgive me let me into heaven" (see #3 below for more on this item)... or "I refuse to believe in a God that will allow THAT man into heaven." or some other thing that ignores the real message of Jesus and the gospel which is that JESUS LOVES EACH OF US ENOUGH TO DIE FOR OUR SINS -- NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE!

BUT... I if I say "No, he couldn't be in Heaven," then you'll likely say "so... what is the cutoff? What if I kill one person? 10? 100? What if I rip off a bunch of old people? What if I steal $5 from my parents wallet? What is the sin that keeps me from heaven?"

So... here's my answer in multiple parts:
1 - I would submit to you that it would not be possible to TRUELY have a relationship with Jesus as your savior, to have Jesus in your heart, to have HIM as Lord of your life and at the same time plan the systematic torture and murder of 6million people. So no, I don't think that Hitler is in heaven
2 - Do I believe that God would have forgiven him if he truely in his heart of hearts asked for the forgiveness (and this really is the crux of the issue here... incerity. Not just "well, Jesus and God might be real, so let me say some prayer and cover my butt just in case") - then YES. I think that God would have forgiven him, would have allowed him into heaven. The Bible doesn't declare that any sin is bigger than any other sin, nor does it exclude anyone from heaven because of a specific sin. The forgiveness and mercy of Christ is the key!
3 - Jesus actually addresses the question of "is it ever too late to repent and be saved?" at 2 different times : First in a parable about workers in the field (I don't have my bible in front of me and don't have the exact passages, though I'll add them tonight) - there are 3 sets of workers, all start at different times and at the end of the day all are paid the same. Second, while on the cross, one of the robbers hung with Jesus asks for forgiveness and Jesus tells him that he will be with him in Heaven that day. Its never too late to repent. The key is not "cover my butt prayer time!" its true belief and true conversion.

I want to add one other point here --- Jesus doesn't just offer entry to Heaven. Living your life as he leads you offers life to the fullest (not easy or perfect or devoid of worries, problems, stress -- to the fullest the most the best that it can be). My life is better since turning it over to Christ.

I hope this answers the question.

ThisHo

[Harv72b]

re: the Hitler question.

Even if Hitler had repented in his last days, opened his heart up to Jesus & all that, Hitler's last act on Earth was to commit suicide. As I understand it, that in itself is a sin, and would prevent him from getting to heaven. Point is therefore moot.

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To answer your question though - A person simply needs to accept Jesus as Lord to be forgiven. Baptism is NOT a requisite for entrance to heaven. It is a step that Christians are encouraged to take as it is an outward sign of your commitment to Christ, but it is not required. Living a life that follows the rules set out by Jesus/God in the Bible is not a requisite.

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I don't doubt your own sincerity, but this goes against what I've been told by numerous other Christians, Catholics chief among them. A life without sin is not required, no, but I have never before heard that baptism was only encouraged. In fact, I have often heard the opposite--that if a person is not baptised, he/she will not gain entry to Heaven no matter what else they do. This may be dependent on your particular church, though; I have noticed that different congregations often interpret things in a different manner.

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Your point that right/wrong are somehow hard wired into us is valid. But here's my question : WHY are we hard-wired like that? Did our creator hard wire us that way? How did we become hard wired with a (very broad and general) sense of right and wrong?

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We were obviously not hard-wired like that, originally, at least if you believe the Biblical depiction of early man. You have Adam and Eve's transgression in the Garden of Eden, the story of Cain and Abel, Pharoah's murderous enslavement of the Israelites, and the immoral activities in Sodom and Gommorah, to name a few. I rather think that it is an evolutionary trait, which has grown into our subconsciousness as we became a societal race.

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hmmm.... my Old Testament is (embarrased to say) a bit rusty.

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You should re-read it. I've read the Bible numerous times (not something most atheists have done), and I've found the books of the Old Testament to be fascinating in places. I personally think that the Book of Job is one of the greatest literary pieces in history.

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You are correct that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE shift between the old and new testaments. Jesus came as the Messiah, the Son of God to fulfill the prophecies and the law of the old testament. Its not a "kinder gentler God", its the same God but reaching out to all of mankind through His only Son. The loving caring God is there in the old testament as well.

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You really need to re-read the Old Testament. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] The core message definitely changes from one to the other, as does the personality of God. I will not speculate on why this is, because I know from experience that there are literally thousands of ways to explain it without blaspheming or implying that God changed (or that there are two different gods of the Bible).

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You'll be forgiven even if you commit the same sin again and again -- provided you truely truely truely are repentant of the sin and that you truely have accepted Jesus into your heart and accepted his forgiveness and mercy.

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I just had to point this out--do you see the contradiction in that sentence? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]