Cards in the muck - dead hand?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Never in a million years is "you got it man" going to be a verbal/binding declaration of a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for all the places where it is.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I think you made the right call, Juanez. It's crystal clear that Player A (QJc, in case I'm getting A and B mixed up) had absolutely no intention of folding his hand and thought the hand was over. That said, he needs to be given a stern talking-to about not mucking his hand before the pot is pushed to him.

Further, as a frequent player in this card room, I can think of nobody that plays there that would actually fold the QJ in this situation. I do, however, know that a lot of players would have made some comment and then called, making sure everyone saw what a terrible beat they took losing with KK. My guess is he limped with them PF, too. Or did he make it $5 straight?

One more thing - was your final ruling that the KK folded, or that he called and then lost? I hope he lost that last $5. I'd say kick him out if he tries to shoot another angle.

[TiK]

[ QUOTE ]
No nut kicking took place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's too bad...

Is saying "fold," not a binding action unless it induces action?

[bernie]

I can agree with the 'retrievable' scenario. Though it still irks me that players get coddled about protecting their hands. Just a pet peeve of mine... But ok, I can let one slide.

However, I'm not so sure I agree with this:

[ QUOTE ]
If Player A's cards were NOT retrievable, he should win automatically.

[/ QUOTE ]

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
"Player A's cards are dead. Player B wins the hand.

A case could be made if he tossed his hand face up."

With verbal action in turn being binding, I think "you got it, man" is a fold. Anyway, the cards may be brought back if easily identifiable and given the angle shot by Player B, giving him the pot is atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a binding verbal action.

Why is it an auto-angle shot? There's really not enough info in the OP to say that for sure. In fact, there's minimal info given on the players and the plays.

What if someone bet into you, you said, 'You got me...' with the intent on making a crying call, yet right after you say it, the guy mucks? Are you then angle shooting by asking if you get the pot because he mucked his hand? no.

On top of that, there are many players who will instantly think his hand would be dead (like I did. Still do, but I can understand the ruling.). So making the claim for the pot isn't necesarily an angle shot.

On that note, I still think people oughtta protect their damn hands. I also tend to find this hand protection stuff more prevalent with online players playing live.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never in a million years is "you got it man" going to be a verbal/binding declaration of a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for all the places where it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like where? Usually it's accompanied by the guy dropping his cards forward towards the muck.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
as a result of any misinformation given by another player

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't this actually paint a broad stroke the way it's worded?

For sh*ts and giggles: Lets say player A bets the river, Player C raises missing player Bs turn as he was about to call. They back up the action, Player B now mucks, but now player C just calls. Let's say player B's cards are still retrievable/identifiable.

Yes, Player C would be a huge dick to do this. But I can imagine it as some won't raise HU.

b

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
For sh*ts and giggles: Lets say player A bets the river, Player C raises missing player Bs turn as he was about to call. They back up the action, Player B now mucks, but now player C just calls. Let's say player B's cards are still retrievable/identifiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case it would be ruled that C must raise. When he put in the riase he either thought B had folded or was shooting angle. We don't encourage angle shooters and if he thought B had fodled there is no reason to allow him to change his action after B actually folds. If he makes a habit of acting out of turn he can be shown to the exit.

[Black Aces 518]

If that was me, I wouldn't try to win the pot, because I don't try to technicality my way to winning a showdown. If both players have paid all bets that there can be, flip em up and let's see. Clearly B wasn't going to raise, right? So then let's see whose hand wins.

Anytime the choice is the best hand winning or second best hand winning, I need a clear reason to let second best win.