is this legal to do?

[ QUOTE ]
And I think risk management is a silly thing to talk about. Getting it all in with aces 3-4 handed is +++++++++EV, nothing close to betting 1:1000 on a 1:1001 shot.

aces=never fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

When did this become an issue about folding AA preflop? This was an issue of limiting the number of opponents when you have AA to increase winning percentage in lieu of increasing pot size.

Secondly, there are times when AA does not want an additional player in the pot.

If you are all-in with AA and then KK and QQ call - do you want a player to call with 65s? The answer is no. If all have $100 in chips, your Ex profit drops from +98 to +80.

Your numbers seem wrong. AA vs. KK & QQ is about 66.5% to win pre-flop. There's $300 in the pot. So your expected profit is ($300 * .665) - $100 = $99.5. AA vs. KK & QQ & 65s is about 48.1% to win pre-flop. There is $400 in the pot. So your expected profit is ($400 * .481) - $100 = $92.4. So your idea is correct, just some wrong numbers. You do not want 65s to call in that situation.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is the reasoning behind wanting people out of the pot when you have the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because my hand will not prob hold up against 3 opps.
The pot is so big that i am satisfied with just these chips.
Less is more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Except no, less is less. And how many opponents do you expect to call your all in raise after a bet and raise?

Seriously - you need to reevaluate your play because this is just stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is playing in a cash NL game it depends on the play before him. Say it's PF and there's a limper and then a raise and a call. Now he re-raises big, the limper folds, the first raiser calls and he shows his AA so he doesn't get that extra call. In my mind that's a good ploy although it is an unethical play. That extra caller will be the one that sucks out on the river with his J8s. Better to get him out and still be able to pick up a large pot. Remember, this is REAL money he's talking about. Not tournement chips. A few hundred dollars win is better than a few hundred dollars lost and me personally I'd be in favor of it (but I woudn't do it). I know that sounds odd but this is real life and money is MONEY.

You are absolutely right. I did a hypothetical in an earlier post, where I used specifically (AsAc, KsKc, QsQc, 6h5h, and a dead hand JsTs)

This is where my numbers came from. Thanks for the catch!

[chessforlife]

good question. true answer: it depends on the individual casino.

"i know this because i do it. most recently, i was at the MIRAGE in vegas. i did it. the floorman said if i did it again, my hand would be forfeit.

the point-- ask the floorman if they allow it."

DUDE, i thought you were talking about showing on the river when thinking about calling a bet.

How do you expect to win a game if your drastically stripping yourself of maximizing your wins?

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
(snipped weak-tight nonsense about not wanting to get sucked out on regardless of EV) I know that sounds odd but this is real life and money is MONEY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're properly bankrolled, EV IS money. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be playing poker without some further study.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah i was referring to cash, but I understand the concept for tournament play also. However, I still don't think I'd be able to lay down aces pf even for all my chips until I have a lot more experience and confidence in my ability to outplay my opponents.

I believe HoH may have covered this situation, but also stated (or maybe I read somewhere else) that only top players that sure of their skill prevailing in the long run should make such a fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it has nothing to do with skill. No one is that good.

The situations I'm talking about are more like this: The tournament is 4-handed. UTG folds leaving himself with 1/4 BB in his stack. Button who has you covered goes all-in, SB who has him covered by 2BB or so calls. Depending on your stack size and the prize payouts, and the rules when 2 players bust on the same hand, it's possible that the correct play for you is to fold no matter what (you have to weigh the fact that folding practically guarantees you second vs. the fact that calling and winning either gives you 1st virtually every time vs. the fact that calling and losing means you take 4th or chop 3rd/4th depending on payout methods)

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, I can't see myself folding aces EVER preflop. If thats a leak, so be it. LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it can't be a leak because these situations are so rare; it's like Ed Miller's "Check/fold a Royal Flush on the River leak". Routinely folding AA on the bubble in situations where you should call is a leak. That's why I said these situations are rare enough that people shouldn't fold AA until they're certain they know what these situations are.

Didn't Mason write about a hand where the wired aces holder went all-in on a decent pot and showed his aces so that nobody would call him, and that it was "one of the best poker plays of all time?" Why risk getting sucked out and busted when the pot is sufficient? I can understand folding aces against multiple opponents to move up to second place in a big payout final table...but I can also understand the max +EV angle as well. I think if the money was right for second, say an extra $2.5 million, I'd probably fold.

I'm no fan of Hellmuth, but I found this interesting:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65557

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(snipped weak-tight nonsense about not wanting to get sucked out on regardless of EV) I know that sounds odd but this is real life and money is MONEY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're properly bankrolled, EV IS money. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be playing poker without some further study.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you on that. I'm assuming the original poster was playing above his head by even asking that question.