A Pokerbot has finally arrived.

[WinHoldemSupport]

pud,

it is your responsibility to define 'should'.
you (the end user) are supposed to setup your hand lists so that your bot will call/rais/alli the hands that YOU selected. it is not our responsibility to do this for you.
our management has made it crystal clear that the winholdem end-users will have complete and total control over their desired hands.

if you look at the call/rais formulas they both refer to the call/rais lists respectively. if you DO NOT select the hands you ALWAYS want to play ... then how do you expect the bot to know what YOU want.

it is not our job to tell YOU what YOU want.
you MUST tell the bot what you want.

since these out of the box settings seem to be a much larger issue than we had thought, i am told that management has instructed development to display a dialog when winholdem is launched if your hand lists have not been setup (are empty). this new version will be relesed shortly i am told.

we at winholdem apologize to everyone for not communicating this responsibility to the end-user more clearly. it is a new piece of software and it was probably incorrect to assume that new users would just automatically know that they should add AA to their call/rais lists.

pud, here is a direct quote from one of the lab techs
"if the pot is currently 100 (this includes all bets in play in front of players) and your call amount is 20 then the expected value of calling (in the simple case) is:

((120*prwin + 60*prtie) - 20)

note that this expression assumes a simple two-way tie and is good enough in any playing conditions"

pud, i am also told that it is probably more accurate to say that winholdem plays pure expected value ... out of the box and that some players might not consider expected value and pot odds to be the same because they are expressed differently.

i hope this helps to clear things up a bit.

winholdem support

[jedi]

1, it's PUDLEY, not "pud". But I guess I can just call you WhineSup.

2, to rephrase your previous posts, you're basically saying that the bot plays perfect pot odds as the USER DEFINES THEM. You have not answered Pudley's question about finding a pot odds situation where you should fold AA pre-flop. (The same applies if you put in "expected value" for pot odds).

3, Answer Pudley's original question. How does cheating enhance the poker experience?

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
it is your responsibility to define 'should'

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe your company needs to hire customer support people who understand math and English. My statement does not depend on any subjective definition/interpretation of the word "should" (or any other word).

Since you still don't understand my statement, let me rephrase it:

When playing strictly according to pot odds, it is never correct to fold AA preflop in a regular limit holdem game.

Now, show me a situation where I am wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
((120*prwin + 60*prtie) - 20)

[/ QUOTE ]

This formula is fine for calculating the EV of the stated situation. If this is the general formula for calculating whether to call or fold preflop, then there must be errors in your prwin and prtie numbers.

According to Poker Calculator your win rate with AA preflop against N opponents is:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
N WR % odds needed to call
0 100 0
1 85 1-5.6
2 73.5 1-2.77
3 64 1-1.77
4 56 1-1.14
5 49 1.04-1
6 43.5 1.30-1
7 38.5 1.60-1
8 34.5 1.90-1
9 31 2.23-1
</pre><hr />

I can't find a situation preflop where AA is not getting at least correct odds to call preflop.

[bh17]

You just won't answer the question will you? How many times does it have to be repeated to you, it's about POT ODDS? I don't think there is a "management" because if there were you would be fired for YELLING and INSULTING people. The only thing bigger then your mouth is your ego DUDE!

[WinHoldemSupport]

jedi,

we dont think anybody should fold AA preflop.
not once have we said that ... ever.

we do acknowledge that the default winholdem settings in a 10 chair game will fold 100% of the time in 3rd chair (with empty hand lists) and the reason for this is quite simple ... if you have AA ... the analyzers will report that your bullets have 30% chance against P=9 and in 3rd chair there are only 3 small blinds in the pot (1 bblind 1 sblind assuming the small is half the big) ... calling in 3rd chair requires a wager of 1 bblind (2 small blinds) which would make the pot total be 5 small blinds and with a 30% chance of winning the default formula believes that you will get 1.5 small blinds in return (on average) and since 1.5 small blinds reward is less than a 2.0 small blinds cost ... the bot will always fold ...

now anybody who knows poker understands that this view of a holdem game is way too conservative.

the input values here can be challenged on several levels ...
30% win for AA is accurate if all 9 players ride 'till the showdown (which is almost always not the case) ... but if all 9 players call the preflop then the pot estimate of 5 bblinds is too low ... which means that a better formula will do one of two things ... try to calculate a better pot estimate .... or calculate win probabilities based on fewer opponents ...

we have other formulas not yet released that use a 'potest' symbol to try and arrive at a better pot total ...

and of course we have other P formulas (see the formul dialog) that control how many opponents the anlayzers play against.

so pud, for the record.

we at winholdem do not think it is ever correct to fold AA preflop (save for a few NL tourney cases).

we do hereby admit and announce officially that the default winholdem settings (empty hand lists) will fold 100% of the time in 3rd chair against 9 opponents.

we also do hereby officially state that proper use of winholdem requires that the end-user take the time to add the hands they always want to play to the hand list dialog.

we have added a popup box to winholdem that will appear on startup if your call list is empty.

and once again we at winholdem apologize for assuming that the end-user would just automatically know to do this.

winholdem support.

[daryn]

winholdem is a hoax. it sends your card info to someone else who can then see your hole cards. paradise poker has already come out and said this.

this is just what i gathered from the internet forum.. of course i can't be sure that this is true, but why take the risk.. are you people that dumb that you need a program like this? go educate yourself! do yourself a favor and go read a poker book, then you won't have to deal with this stupid software.

[WinHoldemSupport]

pud,

winholdem reports the following values for AA
P prwin
---------
0 1.000
1 .848
2 .732
3 .634
4 .556
5 .488
6 .432
7 .385
8 .345
9 .306
---------

all values are accurate to +/- 0.005

winholdem support

[WinHoldemSupport]

daryn,

this has already been challenged and shown to be false.
winholdem connect to the license server once on startup to validate the end-user license.

it never connects again unless the end-users decides to open a private secure channel by pressing the connect button.

this has already been verified by serveral network people in this forum.

winholdem support.

[jedi]

Well at least the answer is a good one that addresses the SW flaw. But still, don't try to set up straw men to justify your bot. Nobody said that YOU said that it's okay to fold AA pre-flop, but confused that it's okay for your bot to do so with perfect pot odds.

Question number 1. There are only 3 small blinds in the pot right now. And granted that AA has only a 30% of winning if all 9 opponents go to the river. Shouldn't it realize that for 9 opponents to go to the river that all of them have to put in 2 small blinds? That's a pretty elementary calculation that shouldn't be missed. Vs. 9 opponents, you'll have 9 big blinds in the pot. Vs. 8 opponents, you'll have 8 big blinds in the pot. If everyone else folded, then you'd get to the 3 small blind calculation that the program originally made, but now you're up against 1 or 2 opponents.

So basically what I'm saying is: This thing does NOT play perfect pot odds.

Also, answer PUDLEY's original question. How does cheating "enhance" the poker experience?

[ QUOTE ]
jedi,

we dont think anybody should fold AA preflop.
not once have we said that ... ever.


[/ QUOTE ]

[WinHoldemSupport]

jedi,

the analyzers dont do anything but calculate chances of winning, losing, tieing. they look at the entire card state of the game and number of opponents called P(selectable by the enduser)

yes you are exactly correct ... better formulas do one of two things ... provide a different P value to the analyzers (see the P formula in the winholdem formula dialog)
and/or also calculate a more accurate pot estimate.

the free version of winholdem does not do these extra things by default.

if you know how to modify the formulas you can easily get it to do all of the above.

....
i cant answer your question about cheating because i have never had knowledge of another players cards without their permission.

please rephrase your question.

winholdem support.