D'Agostino's short-handed advice - Page 4

StellarWind · #31 11-08-2005, 04:16 AM

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Well not exactly in answer to your question, but assuming the button always bets the flop, the fact that you get to see the flop before you choose the action/line that best suits the situation makes calling vastly superior than always 3-betting. The top 25% of hands (or whatever you're supposing to 3-bet preflop) are simply not the top 25% after the flop, so why don't we wait until this huge turning point in the hand before deciding how we want to play it out?

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I agree. It also helps that Button can no longer tell if you're kicking his ass because you have a big starting hand or because you just won the flop lottery. Your premium hands just fade into the background noise created by all the little starting hands that flopped a piece or draw.

bobbyi · #32 11-08-2005, 04:23 AM

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67% of hands or so is:

22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,94s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J6o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,76o

FWIW, i dont think my 3 handed open range is much off of this...

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This range is very similar to the range abdul used to give for opening on the button (although he later toned it down and this for a game with no rake).

bobbyi · #33 11-08-2005, 04:39 AM

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Do you agree that A9 is about the cutoff for 3-betting from the small blind in a 3-handed game?

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He didn't say you can never three-bet a worse hand than this. He was simply using it as an example of the sort of "modest" hand that you might find yourself three-betting with. This is clearly written for people who are used to full games where you would almost never be three-betting with something like A9. I think the section about three-betting from the SB is a good introduction for someone new to shorthaned play, which is clearly what is intended to be.

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Do you agree that one generally should not 3-bet from the bb?

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Yes.

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And do you also agree that 2/3 of the time you should raise from the button?

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I play in online lowish (5/10 and 10/20) stakes games where the rake is high enough to make most of the marginal hands in there uplayable. But he isn't telling you to calculate what the best 2/3 of hand combinations are and raise percisely that set of hands at all times in all games. I can't tell if the people resonding to treat it that way are really that dumb or if they just like being jerks so that they can nitpick every word of the article. He is saying more or less what he generally does to illustrate the idea that you are raising a ton of hands on the button. This article isn't designed for experienced shorthanded players to teach them subtle nuances they've never seen in one page. It's written for people with no shorthanded experience who are used to playing in full games and only raising AJ+ to give them an idea of the general strategy of playing shorthanded. If you don't think this is an okay introductory article to three-handed play, I think you have forgotten what it is like to be someone new enough to poker and shorthanded play that you would need learn something from an article of this kind.

Surfbullet · #34 11-08-2005, 04:51 AM

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67% of hands or so is:

22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,94s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J6o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,76o

FWIW, i dont think my 3 handed open range is much off of this...

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This range is very similar to the range abdul used to give for opening on the button (although he later toned it down and this for a game with no rake).

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This is a really important point. A prohibitive rake in a 3-4 handed game will eat away at what little equity most of these marginal hands have. Abdul's work is impressive, but it is important to recognize where he is coming from.

Surf

Noodles · #35 11-08-2005, 07:29 AM

about the bb calling your raises with QTo
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In fact, the blind is going to have a very difficult time continuing on any board that doesn't contain a Queen or Ten.

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ummmm has he actually played any poker at all?

Wynton · #36 11-08-2005, 09:30 AM

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I can't tell if the people resonding to treat it that way are really that dumb or if they just like being jerks so that they can nitpick every word of the article. He is saying more or less what he generally does to illustrate the idea that you are raising a ton of hands on the button. This article isn't designed for experienced shorthanded players to teach them subtle nuances they've never seen in one page. It's written for people with no shorthanded experience who are used to playing in full games and only raising AJ+ to give them an idea of the general strategy of playing shorthanded. If you don't think this is an okay introductory article to three-handed play, I think you have forgotten what it is like to be someone new enough to poker and shorthanded play that you would need learn something from an article of this kind.

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It's really not fair to accuse people of nitpicking. Assuming that his advice is appropriate for beginners or even anyone on a general matter, he still could have qualified his statements better. I think his remarks plainly implied that A9 was the outer range of what someone should 3-bet with from the sb, and I doubt that most people here would recommend that even for beginners.

But I really don't want to debate his language. I'm more interested in the substance, particularly his comments about not 3-betting from the bb. I was under the impression that most people advocated 3-betting pretty liberally. And I've felt bad about that because my instinct is to call an overwhelming majority of the time. So if calling is generally right, I'm happy to hear it.

Is there any reason that one should take a different approach when the table is SIX-handed and a person is defending his bb from a button's open-raise?

Schneids · #37 11-08-2005, 09:32 AM

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Is there any reason that one should take a different approach when the table is SIX-handed and a person is defending his bb from a button's open-raise?

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Yes. I think as a game gets shorter and shorter, people do generally start raising more hands from the button. I'm not going to debate whether this is correct to do so or not, but it is a truth.

Wynton · #38 11-08-2005, 09:53 AM

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Is there any reason that one should take a different approach when the table is SIX-handed and a person is defending his bb from a button's open-raise?

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Yes. I think as a game gets shorter and shorter, people do generally start raising more hands from the button. I'm not going to debate whether this is correct to do so or not, but it is a truth.

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Does this mean at a six-handed table, when you're defending bb, you 3-bet more or less (as opposed to just calling) than you would at a 3-handed table?

sfer · #39 11-08-2005, 10:55 AM

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If that style is manaical for 3-handed and 4-handed, then I'm certifiably insane. Which may be the case. "Something as modest as A9 might qualify" for 3-betting in the SB after a button raise in a 3-handed game?!

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opening 67% of your button hands IS insane.

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No, it's not. Search the archives for a thread with JV and Sucker about straddling the button 3-handed.

sfer · #40 11-08-2005, 10:57 AM

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67% of hands or so is:

22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,94s+,84s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J6o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,76o

FWIW, i dont think my 3 handed open range is much off of this...

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This range is very similar to the range abdul used to give for opening on the button (although he later toned it down and this for a game with no rake).

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This is a really important point. A prohibitive rake in a 3-4 handed game will eat away at what little equity most of these marginal hands have. Abdul's work is impressive, but it is important to recognize where he is coming from.

Surf

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Many cardrooms will reduce the rake when the game gets short and if the players ask.