Play A Hand With The Triple Threat (Results & Comments)

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, so post-flop it's checked to me, I bet pot and Villian calls.

Turn is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and checked to me again. Now I have a much larger pot and thus must bet more chips, and then he check-raises me. Now what?

Fine, I caused my opponent to make a mistake, but I've also made it much more difficult to extract myself from the hand in decent shape.

Had I been out of position, I would have been far more agressive in my betting.

In this situation, I wasn't too concerned with protecting my hand, I was attempting to extract the maximum amount of chips without pushing out what I believed was a weaker holding that would likely pay me off.

Unfortunately the turn complicated things, and presented me with a situation where I was no longer sure where I stood. Since I couldn't be certain any longer that I was ahead (as I had believed on the flop), I opted to call the check-raise and see the river with position.

Had the river been anything but an Ace or a Jack, I would have put all my chips in. While I wasn't certain if I was ahead, I still believed it to be possible, and figured if that was the case that only an Ace or Jack would scare me on the river. The odds of either of those cards hitting I felt were slim enough to not need to push on the turn.

And if I did push the turn and get called by a made flush or straight, I would have set myself up with only one card to save me.

EDIT: A 9 might give me pause as well, since a Jack could be possible in my opponents hand. The Jack or Ace of diamonds on the river would not scare me, since I'd either have the nuts or 2nd nuts and be ready to go. So I figured if my opponent needed those cards they had two less outs as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry, every time you play this hand, the turn will be the 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Knowing that, I check the flop.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
what is turn is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

if its a diamond and u bet he CR and u 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

If he check-raises me when the 7 of spades falls, I still feel I'm ahead and will likely push all-in at that point. The problem was that a third diamond fell, he could be sitting on A/x of diamonds for all I know, I have no reads and it's the first hand.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, sorry, every time you play this hand, the turn will be the 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Knowing that, I check the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? I bet the flop, but I only bet 120 because I wanted action from a weaker holding.

If my opponent is on A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], for instance, he isn't going to fold on this flop if I bet 120, 150 or 200, he's definetely going to call, he has outs to the straight and the nut flush.

So betting higher will likely push out weaker holdings that might have stuck around to pay me off, and will only give more of my chips over to hands that have me beat or have a strong chance of outdrawing me.

[kuro]

I think you played the hand fine and I don't have a problem with the size of your bets in the hand. Personally, I'd have pushed over villains raise on the turn instead of calling because I think you get really loose calls early in these low buyin tourneys. But that's not really my big concern with this thread.

My concern is that you stated that you don't like committing your chips as a 75% favorite because villains might call and then you lose your ability to get away from a bad beat or use your positional advantage. You should be ecstatic when you get the money all-in as a 75% favorite.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played the hand fine and I don't have a problem with the size of your bets in the hand. Personally, I'd have pushed over villains raise on the turn instead of calling because I think you get really loose calls early in these low buyin tourneys. But that's not really my big concern with this thread.

My concern is that you stated that you don't like committing your chips as a 75% favorite because villains might call and then you lose your ability to get away from a bad beat or use your positional advantage. You should be ecstatic when you get the money all-in as a 75% favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm........you're right. I don't know that I really expressed myself exactly as I'd like. The thing was that I MIGHT be a 75% favorite on the turn, depending on his holding. But, I also could have been behind, I just wasn't sure.

If I felt I had the best hand but that my opponent had outs, I would have pushed against his check-raise on the turn (if a non-diamond 7 had fallen, for instance). And if I was a 75% favorite and got called and outdrawn, so be it.

But, I just wasn't confident enough that I had the best hand anymore, and felt calling was my best option, leaving me with position on the river and the possibility of it being checked down, depending on the river card.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
So betting higher will likely push out weaker holdings that might have stuck around to pay me off, and will only give more of my chips over to hands that have me beat or have a strong chance of outdrawing me.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with this is that the only weaker hands I see hanging around are likely to beat you if they hit their draw unless you re-draw to the boat or make a runner-runner flush. The problem I have with not just trying to take this down right away on the flop is that so many cards can fall on the turn that put you to a tough decision.

Maybe a pot-sized flop bet would not have taken the pot down right away, but I think it was your best chance to do that and avoid more difficult decisions on later streets.

I'm also confused that you say you want to extract maximum chips yet play a small pot. Are those not mutually exclusive?

If you wanted to play a small pot you could have checked behind on the turn. Yes, that might have allowed him to draw to a straight on the river, but it also would have allowed you a free draw to the boat or the second nut flush.

Even if the J on the river gave him the straight, had you checked behind on the turn he might have just made a value bet on the river which would have allowed you to call and if you were beat you still would have a decent amount of chips.

If I had to guess, I think he made the flush on the turn and pushed the river hoping the J made the straight for you and you could call.

Anyway, very interesting hand and great discussion.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
My problem with this is that the only weaker hands I see hanging around are likely to beat you if they hit their draw unless you re-draw to the boat or make a runner-runner flush. The problem I have with not just trying to take this down right away on the flop is that so many cards can fall on the turn that put you to a tough decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt my hand was strong enough to try and draw more chips out of my opponent. If he is indeed on a draw, he likely only has a handful of outs, so I don't mind taking that risk when I have position.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a pot-sized flop bet would not have taken the pot down right away, but I think it was your best chance to do that and avoid more difficult decisions on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pot-sized bet would have been called if I'm beat, or if my opponent has enough outs to the straight/flush draws. If he's really weak, he might fold and I miss out on gaining some extra chips. If he's ahead or has a number of ways to outdraw me, then it makes the pot too large on later streets for me to extract myself if I am outdrawn. With position on my opponent, I can much more easily see how the hand develops and figure out if I'm likely beat when other cards fall.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also confused that you say you want to extract maximum chips yet play a small pot. Are those not mutually exclusive?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot wasn't necessarily "small", just that it wasn't so large that I couldn't get away from it. The chips in it were significant enough at that stage in the game.

Extracting maximum value was key for me, thus the bets I felt my opponent could/would call with hands that I had beat.

[ QUOTE ]
If you wanted to play a small pot you could have checked behind on the turn. Yes, that might have allowed him to draw to a straight on the river, but it also would have allowed you a free draw to the boat or the second nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured the only way the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] helped my opponent on the turn was if he held the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and had re-draws and was willing to get all his money in, or if he had made his flush at that point. When he checked, I made a bet that I felt would be called by my opponent, because at that point I felt I was still ahead.

When he check-raised, I began to doubt the possibility that I was still ahead. I figured it was 50/50 at that point, so I opted to call with position, and not be pot-stuck where I couldn't get away on the river (plus, I had outs to the 2nd nut flush plus the boat)

[ QUOTE ]
Even if the J on the river gave him the straight, had you checked behind on the turn he might have just made a value bet on the river which would have allowed you to call and if you were beat you still would have a decent amount of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but when I bet on the turn it was because I still believed I was ahead of my opponent, and I was trying to get more chips out of him. At that point I still have my set, the 7 likely didn't help him and I have the 2nd nut flush draw for the river as well as the boat. So I wanted to get more chips out of him and then he check-raised and that changed the dynamics of the situation a bit for me.

[ QUOTE ]
If I had to guess, I think he made the flush on the turn and pushed the river hoping the J made the straight for you and you could call.

Anyway, very interesting hand and great discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. Then again, it's also possible that he held the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with another card and figured that I didn't have the flush, but that I might have the straight on the river just like him, but fear the flush. Since he knows I cannot have the nuts, he pushes the river and hopes to avoid the split and take it all down. Either way, I was 90-95% behind easily in my mind, and couldn't call. But I got away with half my stack and was able to recover and go deep in the tourney anyway.

The way it is played, I could just as easily see villian having AKo on the turn and check raising you because you didn't really show too much strength, and now he has TPTK. Still don't change the fact that you were beat on the river with that hand, but I think you don't give youself credit for all the possible holdings he could have here, it's really hard to say since he could have called the flop bet with alot.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
The way it is played, I could just as easily see villian having AKo on the turn and check raising you because you didn't really show too much strength, and now he has TPTK. Still don't change the fact that you were beat on the river with that hand, but I think you don't give youself credit for all the possible holdings he could have here, it's really hard to say since he could have called the flop bet with alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

He "might" have A/K, but I would have expected a raise from him pre-flop, not a limp. Or, a re-raise after I raised, instead of calling out of position with A/K.

I figure him for a weaker Ace there, possibly suited, or suited connectors, or just paint that to him, looks "pretty" enough to call. It's hard to say, having no reads on my opponent what his possible holding might be on the very first hand.

Thats right, no reads.

I see lots of people who never raise preflop (unless they have AA, KK, or QQ), but will limp then call with hands like AK, JJ, etc, but then get more aggressive postflop once the cards are out. I used to be pretty passive preflop myself, I became better.

I mean, I think you are ahead enough here to get all your chips in, and the times you are behind, you got 2 good draws (assuming he don't have the ace of diamonds).

I mean, hey, you got out of it this time with 750 chips left, but if he had something like AK and you reraised all in on the turn and he had part of a brain, he might put you on the flush and you would have 1500 more chips there (2250 instead of 750).

Its two different theorys of thinking though, the survivalist theory, and the accumulator theory. I'd rather go all in and have a chance to double up (either way ahead or 35% dog, love my chances there, not a pure dog either way). And if I bust out first hand, oh well, I won't regret it, I played the hand to the best of my abilitys and only wasted 2 minutes of the tourney, better to me to do that than to fold and be down half my chips, then to likely bust sometime in the first or second hour after short stacking it and tryin to build back up the whole time.

Just an opinion though, who is to say who is right?