Limping JTo 6 max

[BobboFitos]

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How is raising an easily dominated hand UTG not a recipe for getting hammered Bobbo?

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Well... Without going into too much detail think about this:
1. Hands aren't routinely shown down in nlh (unlike limit, where this would be a leak)
2. Are you really going to play a big pot on a Txx or Jxx flop?
3. The hand is worth playing, it's one of only two offsuit hands that are "good" (AKo being the other)

Are all these true? I'd like to think so, although maybe not.

[Malachii]

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Preflop is unimportant.

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Huh?

[BobboFitos]

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Preflop is unimportant.

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Huh?

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I agree, double huh? (Perhaps this is taking the concept a little far, dov... Under this notion should I raise T4o 1st to act? A3o? J7s?)

[xorbie]

I'd recommend reading all his posts over the last couple days.

[Malachii]

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1. Hands aren't routinely shown down in nlh (unlike limit, where this would be a leak)

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I think this is kind of a weak argument.
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2. Are you really going to play a big pot on a Txx or Jxx flop?

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No, raising JTo UTG isn't going to cost me my stack. However, it could easily cost me money against some loose/passive fish who calls with QJ. I don't have any illusions about this. Also, what if I catch a flop like J-J-7. OOP, this could potentially be very bad.
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3. The hand is worth playing

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How come? Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to hear some reasoning.
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It's one of only two offsuit hands that are "good" (AKo being the other)

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Not sure about this one. I'll take AQ over JT any day UTG at 6max.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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Preflop is unimportant.

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Huh?

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I agree, double huh? (Perhaps this is taking the concept a little far, dov... Under this notion should I raise T4o 1st to act? A3o? J7s?)

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OK. "Preflop is unimportant in the situations that were being talked about in the post to which I responded. At least as compared to postflop."

[BobboFitos]

Ok, good argument mal, I guess I need to write more to defend my stance [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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1. Hands aren't routinely shown down in nlh (unlike limit, where this would be a leak)

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I think this is kind of a weak argument.


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You're absolutely right. This is weak. This is saying XX (72o -> AA) should be played in a similar fashion because unless thye're shown down, the winning hand is just that, a winning hand.

However, the reason the raise gains creditability is because (especially if you ARENT raising any two cards) is you do have a ton of postflop stealing equity. ie, they put you on AK (or similar hand) and act accordingly, or you continuation bet and hands which are correctin caling (such as A3 on a K 8 7 board) elects to fold instead.


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2. Are you really going to play a big pot on a Txx or Jxx flop?

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No, raising JTo UTG isn't going to cost me my stack. However, it could easily cost me money against some loose/passive fish who calls with QJ. I don't have any illusions about this. Also, what if I catch a flop like J-J-7. OOP, this could potentially be very bad.

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First example getting called by QJ is great. You win when no one flops anything, you often lose a small pot when you both flop a little bit of something, and if you flop big (J T 9, etc.) he flops enough to give lots of action.

In the doomsday scheme of both flopping trips, but you flop worse kicker, sometimes you go broke. (Although on a J J 7r board, if called, I'd proceed fairly cautiously, unless they were a calling station and would give me action with any pair)



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3. The hand is worth playing

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How come? Not saying your wrong, I'd just like to hear some reasoning.


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it can make full boat, trips, two pair, one pair (generally top pair!) straight, even straightflush (royal flush!) and flush. Whats not to like? *and quads.

Seriously though, if a big pot is played, (on a certain board you'd like to play one) JT breaks alot more hands then is broken.

It has good nut potential and semibluff equity. Both of these things, (more so higher stakes) are very very important, and frankly why JTo is that much better then AJo.

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It's one of only two offsuit hands that are "good" (AKo being the other)

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Not sure about this one. I'll take AQ over JT any day UTG at 6max.

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Ok, you take AQ, I'll take JT.

AQ is a good hand, it's worth playing, and all in all it's probably close so not worth arguing which hand is "better"

[Malachii]

Thanks for the explanation Bobbo.
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First example getting called by QJ is great. You win when no one flops anything, you often lose a small pot when you both flop a little bit of something, and if you flop big (J T 9, etc.) he flops enough to give lots of action.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm still not really sold on this... let's say for simplicity's sake that we're playing $100 NL. I raise $4 UTG with JT, you call. $8 + change in the pot. Rags flop, I bet, you fold. I win $8.

Now let's say we both hit a pair. Flop comes J-x-x. I bet $6, you call. Turn check/check. River I check/call your $10 bet. Net loss = ($4 PR + $6 bet + $10 call = I lose $20. I don't think you'll be able to pickup enough uncontested pots to offset this.
In summary, while I think you make good points, I think that those small pots we lose to a better J or T when we hit a pair add up and raising UTG therefore qualifies as a leak. We may have to agree to disagree on this one though [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[mason55]

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Thanks for the explanation Bobbo.
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First example getting called by QJ is great. You win when no one flops anything, you often lose a small pot when you both flop a little bit of something, and if you flop big (J T 9, etc.) he flops enough to give lots of action.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm still not really sold on this... let's say for simplicity's sake that we're playing $100 NL. I raise $4 UTG with JT, you call. $8 + change in the pot. Rags flop, I bet, you fold. I win $8.

Now let's say we both hit a pair. Flop comes J-x-x. I bet $6, you call. Turn check/check. River I check/call your $10 bet. Net loss = ($4 PR + $6 bet + $10 call = I lose $20. I don't think you'll be able to pickup enough uncontested pots to offset this.
In summary, while I think you make good points, I think that those small pots we lose to a better J or T when we hit a pair add up and raising UTG therefore qualifies as a leak. We may have to agree to disagree on this one though [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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And when the flop comes AKQ and you get it all in with top 2 or top and bottom, does that make up for losing a little here and there?

I'm with TWP though, you're not going to hurt yourself either way in NLHE.

[element00]

broad ways get paid off often enough I think jto can show a nice profit if you play it correctly*post flop* and semi bluffing also adds into profitability.