Preflop debate

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Standard and de rigueur.

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I now think the above words should be banned on this forum [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[NYplayer]

ok, i dont' have experience with 2-4 and lower so you may be correct.

[mike l.]

"I think we have a different definition of domination."

no we dont.

"For example, AK dominates AQ or KQ but doesn't dominate JT (although it obviously is a better hand)."

duh i never ever said it did.

"Another example: AA doesn't really dominate 33 in a multi-way pot, since a good flop (set) for 33 will torture AA but AA will rarely get much out of the 33 when 33 doesn't flop a set."

i never ever said it did or wouldve said anything to make you have any reason to state this.

"Most of UTG's limping hands don't contain a jack or ten."

i never ever said they do. i said that when he does have a J or T in his hand it is almost always one that has JT dominated.

"many of the hands that UTG could have that contain a jack or ten AND dominate JT generally come in for a raise)"

im not sure, but i think this player might limp with AJ and AT rather than raise it. ditto KT and KJ, QT and QJ.

"I'd sometimes play the JT on the button"

im pretty sure that neither you nor lmd nor gabe would limp w/ JTo on the button after one limper. from what ive seen i think lmd would raise it sometimes and you would fold it 100% of the time. gabe would almost always fold it as well. if this thread has changed all of your minds and youll all be calling with it than awesome, the games just got a little juicier.

[Gabe]

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but there's no game online even close to as good as the 20-40 this KJo hand was in, in terms of looseness and passiveness and terrible play.

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Well, there's certainly not a game, on-line, with as much multi-way action.

[SA125]

I voted fold for both, with A being better than B. I've posted hands where I've over limped on the button with JTo, but the hand sucks and can cost you more BB's than it makes for you.

[andyfox]

Are you using the 2+2 editor?

[Rick Nebiolo]

OK, we agree on definition of domination, but I still think JT is rarely dominated in the traditional sense after this type of player limps UTG.

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im pretty sure that neither you nor lmd nor gabe would limp w/ JTo on the button after one limper. from what ive seen i think lmd would raise it sometimes and you would fold it 100% of the time. gabe would almost always fold it as well. if this thread has changed all of your minds and youll all be calling with it than awesome, the games just got a little juicier.

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Well, I'd prefer to play a weak hand on the button if the UTG limper was weak in the sense that he is easily readable and not too tricky. But I want to see flops on the button with a modicum of high card strength and one limper. With more high card strength I'm raising of course.

Games are always juicy if I'm in it, for obvious reasons.

~ Rick