2-4 hand

[AceHigh]

I wouldn't bet the flop, I would check/raise.

[Michael Davis]

Quite often, Clark may have up to 6 outs even if it turns out he is beaten. An opponent would have to be borderline insane to threebet here with QJ.

-Michael

[Saborion]

That is true. But do they often fire again on the turn with a draw against 2 players, one of them being the PFR, when they have the option to go for a free card?

[Saborion]

Why did you bet the flop?
Against 4 opponents you're not likely to have the best hand anymore, are you? Granted, someone with a better hand might fold, but anyone with a Q won't, and there's a possible flush and straight draw out there.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
That is true. But do they often fire again on the turn with a draw against 2 players, one of them being the PFR, when they have the option to go for a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the internet? Of course they do. Heck, I had to beg people on this forum to check the turn with a draw in a thread the other day.

To address other questions, I definitely call the river. However, it's really not that important since all but the strongest players will be checking behind unless they have a monster, which they don't, or they'd have 3-bet the turn.

I want to address this thread more, because I really think checkraising the turn here is important, but frankly, I'm too tired to do it justice. Basically, you have a great shot of having the lead. You can't allow the 3rd player with either a weak made hand or 6 outs to call. Even if you are behind to a pair, you have 6 outs against the CO a huge % of the time.

The pot size dictates that you can't fold, so investing this incremental bet to maximize your chances of winning the pot is absolutely essential. You can fold a better hand if you are behind, you could easily have the best hand, but any non-dominated hand has at least 6 outs to beat you. The CO is more likely than not to be drawing. This is an easy investment of an incremental bet that simply must be made. Just calling here in an 8.5BB pot is terrible.

I hope to expound some more, but I wanted to get something out here for discussion because this is a critical type of play. There is discussion on this type of concept in TOP where you are less than 50% sure you have the best hand, but raising still becomes the correct play because of the chances to get it headsup and the size of the pot.

[Clarkmeister]

I bet the flop for a few reasons.

1. I won't be folding, even for 2 bets cold on this flop.

2. It is very disjointed and I have a high likelihood of getting many people to fold.

3. My opponents are more readable if I keep betting than if I overrepresent my hand be checking and raising.

Checking and folding is out of the question. Checking and calling definitely inferior to betting in this spot.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
1. I won't be folding, even for 2 bets cold on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
That might be 7.5 + 1 + 2 = 10.5 to you. You call getting 5:1 from the pot? Possible 6 outs + 1 for the backdoor flush + maybe something for a backdoor straight. Then add possible implied odds? What about reverse implied odds?

Maybe it doesn't matter since you most likely won't be faced with a raise and re-raise behind you if you bet out. Just curious about that statement since I'm a weak post.

[ QUOTE ]
3. My opponents are more readable if I keep betting than if I overrepresent my hand be checking and raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
That might be true. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If we're going to call, it's better to bet, I agree. I wouldn't be sure I wanted to call though, since
1: even if we hit an A or K, that might give someone two pair
2: if someone has a flush-draw, we
a) have less clean A and/or K outs
b) they'll hit their flush one time out of three
3: someone might have a straight draw (not too worried about that, but combined with the possible flush draw, it worries me a bit)
4: someone might have two pair or better, making us draw almost dead.

I thought we had to improve to win this pot, clearly I was wrong. I'm way too weak post it appears. Hopefully TTH will help me get a better idea of how good/bad shape a hand like As Ks is in a spot like that. It seems as though I'm way too worried about things when playing, and I strongly suspect overcoming that will have a great impact on my win rate.

[bisonbison]

Really interesting post. I do not yet have the wherewithall to make these plays on the turn.

[Saborion]

Well, if there's a reasonable chance that the turn bettor is on a draw, then check-raising is clearly better than simply calling. I didn't expect so many people to bet their draws when they can get a free card though. Learned something new today too, making it a good day. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Saborion]

Routine play with AQo?