Understanding this hand will make us all better.

[DcifrThs]

mike,

thanks for making me do ALL THAT WORK for your short little reply lol. i love it.

anyway, since there were 4 of you and 4 different ways to play it...could you say what the other folks said they'd want to do (after you read my long ass post because it took me a while to write it!!!)

thanks,
-Barron

[AQheartbreak]

like most people, call. same reason, pot's small and you want others in the hand while you draw. Your King might not be an out if KQ is out against you. you'll get a 6x out, but you prolly dominate it anyway, and it's drawing slim. If you think youre 6 is best, then i guess a raise is ok to protect it, but the answer is obvious. You are really lookin to hit youre flush. Also, if someone happens to hold Ax hearts, nullifying your flush draw, then you save bets by calling, becuase the nut flush is going no where. I think its pretty straight forward, call.

[Your Mom]

I think DS is saying the decision is so close it doesn't matter.

[DiamondDave]

Just calling is the play here. (Take heed, because this is coming from someone who tends to raise whenever it's close between calling and raising.)

Keeping the rest of your opponents in is the overriding concern. Also, you don't want to leave it open to a re-raise from the orignal bettor. (You're winning in expectation if four people put in one bet. You're losing in expectation if you and the asian lady each put in three.)

I'm up for capping the betting once it becomes clear that everyone is in, though. I'd be even more enthusiastic if I were drawing to the nut flush, but that's just me.

For those of you who think that drawing to the king-high flush in late position is mandatory, I just watched Ad8d (in the blinds) and KdQd (in the cutoff) go seven bets on the flop that contained two diamonds with no pair between them. The checked the turn and the river. Ace-high took it down. I shudder to think of the carnage that another diamond would have brought to someone's stack.

And, no, I wasn't involved in the hand.

[Avarice]

A. I agreed with most of the posters here, and said that I would smooth-call just about every time. By letting the other people in the hand with my two shots at 14 outs to what I think would almost certainly be the best hand, I feel confident that I am getting a +EV situation (given that I rarely see terrible players fold for one bet on any flop). By raising to get heads-up against someone I may or may not have beat with a tiny pot at stake, I believe the situation is still +EV (due to my outs), but just not as much. Also, I don't care about variance one way or the other, but the latter play is much higher on that. Note that if one of those terrible players raises, then I reraise or cap the flop for a plethora of reasons.

B. I 4-bet the turn. If she 5-bets (no cap heads-up), I call, then call the turn and can fold on the river if I haven't caught by then.

C. If she bets, I call and muck on the river if I don't catch. If she checks, I bet and will bluff the river if any card higher than 8 hits, otherwise I will check and hope my pair of 6's are good.

[worm33]

I dont think how 2 idiots play A ace high flush draw against a King high flush draw has any bearing on the difference between the 2. They put 7 bets in on the flop and checked it down? Thats uh good poker.

[J.A.Sucker]

OK, now that lots of people have gotten a chance to reply, I'll give more insight.

Preflop, I make a lot of loose calls on the button, especially against a weak lineup like there was here. The BB was a complete moron, as were the two limpers. They literally will chase any perceived draw all the way, and at least one of them will do it for any number of bets. The Asian lady is another special consideration, and I'll elaborate more on that later.

The flop came down beautiful for me. The calling stations checked to the Asian lady, who bet. My choices were to call or to raise. Calling is better if the following condition is met: The checkers will call one bet but not two with their thin draws. However, this is NOT the case with these people. If they have any piece of this flop, they will call two SB's. Against normal players, calling is better. However, against these especially terrible players, raising is far superior, IMO. This was an extreme case.

The Asian lady's presence also makes it better to raise, and here's why: We have literally played 100's of hours together, and I routinely run over her, especially when we're headsup. She realizes this, and she likes to "take a stand" whenever she has any kind of hand. Since she bet out to me in a multiway pot, I knew she had an OK hand, most likely a Q. I love my hand against her headsup, since I'm a favorite against whatever hand she has (she slowplays her sets in these spots).

Alas, the checkers all folded, but that's OK. Now, Asian lady 3 bet me. I know that I'm in good shape now against her. She has a good, but vulnerable hand, like a Q. I'm almost positive of this. Now, I'm willing to keep raising her headsup (no cap once everyone folds) all the way to the felt, which was like 300 dollars. This was my plan. Even if I were to lose this hand, I'd be getting action from her forever.

Unfortuantely, she slowed down and called my 4 bet.

The turn came a J. She checked, I bet. I'm not taking a free card, since I have a pair, which may be good.

The river came another J, but it completed my flush. She checked, I bet, and she called. I would have checked behind if I missed, and if checkraised, I would call.

This really isn't a good "post" hand, since my decision on the flop was player-dependent, and not really easily communicated here. Plus, I don't think beetz realized all of the factors that I considered. In a normal spot, I usually call on the flop, but this was a special circumstance. However, either decision is close, and it really doesn't matter what you do.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew she had an OK hand, most likely a Q. I love my hand against her headsup, since I'm a favorite against whatever hand she has (she slowplays her sets in these spots).

[/ QUOTE ]
you're only a 1.60% favorite against Q2o, and a dog to KQ or 2 pair.
[ QUOTE ]
The turn came a J. She checked, I bet. I'm not taking a free card, since I have a pair, which may be good.

[/ QUOTE ]
i thought she had a Q?

[shemp]

Shhhhhhhhhh.

[elysium]

hi mr. sklansky
i don't understand the 4 bet. in this situation.....let me just without getting into button speed cha, da, da, ta, pa. in this situation, he's in late position. he's on the button. on the button. the game is passive with weak limpers. i am more interested in the ev gained by not frightening the limpers. if i'm going to be in the CO on the next hand, i want the field to continue to limp in if they are in a limping mode for now. the 4 bet will insure that i get the ball on the next round, but i won't have the opportunity to maximize the ev if on that round i have a strong hand.

in this situation, i think the ev is in encouraging the field to limp to me when i'm in the CO. if i get a small pair, under those conditions, i can play it correctly. i'm sure though that you do well when checked to in the CO. but that's specialized play for experts. in this game i like the speed limit.

on the turn, i again like the check to keep the limpers limping to me on the next hand when i take the CO, and to allow my hand to improve. this also avoids a possible check-raise.

if there were no limpers, then i like the 4 bet and turn bet assuming game conditions were different. but bad has precious limpers to think about, and must keep that button moving along at a goodly limited speed.