Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

This is an interesting hand. And I think it's important. It's important because I know 4 proven winning players who would have played it differently.

I know how Avarice, J.A. Sucker, myself, and haakee would have played it. We all play it differently, and we all win different amounts at poker (I come in last, by the way, at $4.83 an hour :-( .)

One of the four played the hand, I will not say who for now, because I want honest answers to this post.

THE HAND IN QUESTION (and don't turn this into a damn preflop debate, ok?):

two very weak terrible players limp, and a bad, slightly over-aggressive-but-sane young asian lady dealer limps. Hero limps on button with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], making a remark about how loose it is.

Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

check, check, check, asian lady bets, .... OK. Here's your assignment.


A. Write a gameplan for the hand from this point forward and explain the reasons for your actions. Ignore the obvious preflop debate. You played the hand, we're worried about postflop play, cause that's where the money is here.

B. Let's assume you raised the flop and it's folded to lady who hesitantly three-bets. Now revise your gameplan for the rest of the hand. Call? Cap and check turn? Cap and bet turn? Be thourough.

C. You decided to cap the flop. Turn brings a total brick. revise your gameplan again. check or bet?



This hand is important because it focuses on different post-flop play (and by different, I mean these four players play this hand differently, some VERY differently, and yet all win, but different amounts)

If you are Avarice, Haakee, Sucker, or myself, do not respond with thoughts or results until we have a few answers.

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

One question. On the flop, with your big draw, do you really want to drive out the two horrible EP players? It might be better to smooth call and keep them in to help build the pot. Then, see what the turn brings.

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

yes, that's an obvious argument for smooth calling the flop.

Can you follow the format, A. B. C. Describe the rest of the way you play the hand after calling for A, for example, "I'll call here and if I get a caller and a check-raiser I'll three-bet, etc?"

Then for B and C assume you strayed from your plan and did those things and write new ones

sorry to be a pain

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

I don't know how I'd play the flop, but if I did cap it and she checked the turn, I'm betting 100% of the time. This is with the intention of checking behind on the river if I don't improve. You may have the best hand here or hit a heart, king or six that improves your hand. If I get check-raised on the turn, I can fold to a river bet if I don't improve. I'm interested to hear who played this hand, how, and what the results were.

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

A few remarks before we continue.

The terrible players are just as likely to call 2 bets as 1 (if they have a pair or a gutshot).

Also, young asian lady and hero have played A LOT of poker together, and she plays differently against hero than most players, becoming a certifiable maniac.

For those who are unable to infer the following, I am the hero.

you punkass
 

punk ass bwaatch! you've ruined my plan.

oh, and for further information, I think the asian lady is cute and sucker thinks she's hideous.

Re: you punkass
 

My bad, beetz.

I didn't read the last sentence of your post. At any rate, we already had a "few" responses, no? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW: I know that there's no accounting for taste, but, my lord, that woman is about 6 years of heavy drug use beyond attractive. However, I'm sure her husband would disagree with me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Come on out with me and we'll work on finding you an attractive asian lady.

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

Its slightly better to call on the flop because the pot is small.

Assuming you raise, its probably better to reraise as well.

When checked to on the turn, it is slightly better to bet unless there is almost no chance your sixes are the best hand.

It is wrong to think that playing these types of hands well is a major aspect of winning poker.

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

I never understood the "cap the flop with a pair and flush draw" automatic play.

A. I'd call to let the weak players in, as there's no reason to clean my K out (KQ and K8 seem unlikely, and KQ wouldn't fold anyway).

B. Now I'd cap for the free card, and bet the turn if I improve.

C. Check if she turns into a certifiable maniac.

Re: Understanding this hand will make us all better.
 

First off, stop defending the pre-flop limp like it's a bad move. The pre-flop call is fine.

A. The first question to ask myself is what range of hands would this player limp in with, and which of those hands would she bet from late position. That step is probably pretty obvious, but whatever. Sometimes I need to tell myself to do it at the table.

Ok, she's sane. That's good, I guess. For her. With a couple bad players in front of her, and being in late position, she might have limped with a wide range of hands. Then she bets the flop in late position. So she could have a king, or an eight just as easily.

But let's forget about her for a second. Looking at the terrible limpers...I'll assume that if they have a pair or any draw, they will see the turn. Full stop. Maybe not for 3 bets, but almost surely for 2. So although you might want to just call here to get several calls and build a pot, go ahead and raise so they can make a mistake. If they fold, they would have for 1 bet anyway. And if they fold, that's not bad either, because you might end up heads up with position, a pair, and a strong draw against an over-aggressive player who might have very little. Also raise the flop to push hands like 9T, TJ, and JQ out.

If I get a couple callers and no re-raise, and the turn is a blank, I'd check almost every time. If I end up heads up and the asian woman just calls, I'd bet the turn almost every time. And if she re-raises, I'd probably cap the flop and check the turn (provided she checks to me). Occationally I'll bet the turn, but usually when I hold middle pair/overcard kicker rather than bottom pair. Also if I think she will lay down an 8 or weak king, sometimes I'll call the flop and raise the turn no matter what comes.

Obviously if a king, six, or heart comes, I'd bet/raise the rest of the way (although not necessarily if a K comes and she bets into me -- that reeks like kings up or a bluff, and I'd be more inclined to call down, or bet if checked to).

B. I sorta already answered this, but to say it again, I'd either call the flop and raise the turn if I think she would lay down a better hand, or cap the flop and usually check/sometimes bet the turn. I like calling the flop and calling the turn if a blank comes least of all, because it gives you the worst chance of winning the pot.

C. Again this is very player-dependent, and I'm not sure either is certian. Usually I'll check, but if I have a good read on her (that she's very weak) then I might bet.

2 things to consider: 1. She has a weak pair or ace high and put me on a flushdraw, and that's why she three-bet the flop. But when I cap, she puts me on a made hand of some sort and will fold a hand I would like her to fold (an eight, for example). 2. She flopped a big hand and wants to checkraise the turn. (I think this is less likely, because she might have just called the flop bet instead)

-Diplomat