Mandalay Bay 4-8: Folded 10 outer on the flop

[rharless]

No worries. Seems like everyone knew for awhile I was a girl, but this month you are at least the third poster to call me "he".

If I used a name like "Pokerbabe" or "jen" or "Elizabeth" then it'd be a little easier.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister, I respect your opinion so I'm a little surprised that you would raise KQo in any position. I udnerstand that it's a raise or fold hand, but here the blinds are half size. There's less money in the pot to start, so you should tighten up preflop. KQo isn't so hot in a normal structure, so my instinct is to fold it in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

People in this game like to coldcall with Q8s and to limp with K3o. It is important that they pay $6 for the right to do so rather than $2.

And that's in a "typical" Mandalay game. In this one she really doesn't want to let me see the flop for free, or let Majorkong limp (or raise) on the button with basically anything under the sun.

[AviD]

Even so with the flop raise...in your example with AK you are behind. Now you are down to 4 J outs and 3 Q outs...I'd be very concerned on the raise and believe I am behind. Even if a K or a Q lands...now what are you thinking? Am I facing an outkicked pair of Ks or are my Ks beat by As or are my Qs beat by Ks or As?

Tough place to be...which is why the preflop raise is questionable IMO. But, on the same token, given the game (blinds aside, strictly from a player perspective), SHE () wanted to limit the field and did just that. But where does that really leave her with that flop?

[Clarkmeister]

Later on in the same session I open raised to $6 with KdQd UTG. The same aggressive person who 3-bet rharless 3-bet me. One loose player who thinks he plays well but is a total fish coldcalled, I called. 3 to the flop for $29 after rake and jackpot.

Flop: [9s 6d 2h] Checked to preflop 3-bettor who bets, fish calls, I call. 3 to the turn.

Turn: Th. Checked to preflop 3-bettor who bets, fish folds, I checkraise. Rharless starts chatting with me about my chip stacking style on turn raises.

He thinks and folds.

Nothing particularly useful, just that you can't give up on the flop against these guys who are very aggressive. Now this pot was larger, but I think the point still holds.

[Elizabeth]

Sorry ... you are right that she's still behind to AK. What I meant is that you're going to face a flop raise even against "unmade" 3 betting hands.

You might gain information on whether or not you're behind -- but that's not really the info you want. You already should know based on the 3 bet that you're behind. The info you want is whether or not you have 4 or 10 or maybe 7 outs. Because most of these situations raise, and sometimes you will get a flat call with a 4 outer, I don't think betting gets you that information.

I agree it's not a good place to be in on the flop. I don't so much think it's the preflop raise that put her here, it's the 3 bettor.

If she check-calls, she's getting 7:1 on the flop. That's enough for a 7 outer, but not for a 4 outer. I seriously doubt all 10 outs are good. Whether or not to take a card off depends on how tight the 3 bettor is. I will point out that the implied odds if you hit a J are enough to bring the 4 outer closer to a call, so in most situations I'd be comfortable taking a card off. Against very passiver opponents who don't 3 bet , I'm comfortable folding the flop.

[Bob T.]

It might have been right, but I am not going to fold just yet. I think that calling and waiting for the turn card, checkraising the flop/leading the turn, and checkraising the turn all are viable plays.

[Bob T.]

Oh, and I don't know if I like this hand UTG in this structure. If you raise, you could play against a better hand, or, you could steal the TINY blinds. Limping UTG, seems like a bad choice also, because you might still be facing a raise that really just serves notice that you are in a tough situation. I think this structure really is set up for very tight play up front, and very loose play in the back. By passing on a situation like this, you are giving up a very small investment in terms of the blind equity that you have lost.

[Ed Miller]

Personally, I don't like KQo pre-flop raise in a normal game. Only better hands will go in...

When people say stuff like this, I wonder if they've actually played any 4-8. My raises typically get called by all sorts of crapola... 95s, K2s, K7o, etc.

[rharless]

At the table, post hand, both Clarky and Kong said they would definitely have called the flop. Clarky said for all we know, he could be 3-betting pocket threes since we haven't seen many/any of his raised hands.

When I make an UTG raise with KQ, and I am 3-bet, I insta-assume: premium hand which has me dominated. Certainly there are times where that assumption is correct, but this is a good hand to illustrate that I simply can't make that assumption with all opponents. That may sound (is) obvious, but the point is that I have it so drilled into my head that KQ risks domination from raising hands, and I am so book-trained to be Wary, that I by nature assume any 3-bettor must have one of those dominating hands. With this guy's raising frequency and lack of showdown, it's safe to assume he has a wider range of raising hands. He very well could have me dominated, which would really suck, but it's not definite by any means.

Also, I am getting 6-1 on the flop (not accounting for rake) so I'd need to get about 5 more small bets post flop. If I catch turn J, he would pay off with a real hand. If he doesn't have a real hand, then even though I might not get those five small bets from him post flop, I'd still gain no-showdown-what's-she-got equity if he folds to my turn C/R or river bet. And if he doesn't have a "real" hand, then I might have as much as 10 outs anyways which makes my flop fold awful.