CARD COUNTING VS POKER

[Homer]

just wanted to get that str8 thou I SHOULD very my bet from 15 bucks to approx. 150 bucks on anyone hand???

Yep. Welcome to the wonderful world of card counting.

You need a huge bankroll relative to what you would need to make the same amount playing poker.

-- Homer

[tpir90036]

if you didn't increment your betting at all how exactly did you take advantage of the technique?

(i realize there is more to card counting strategy than just incrementing bets)

[zooey]

I appreciate the advice. I had a reality check about learning a tough system in 3 weeks, and went out and got KO Blackjack instead.

( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg.../-/0929712315)

What a great book! It was published after I started playing, so I never looked at it, but I'm impressed. I admit I find the whole idea of unbalanced counts and rounded strategy indices (only 3 values to remember! No more true count conversions!) suspicious, but they've crunched enough numbers to show their simple system gives up very little to the big boys.

And thanks for the Binions suggestion. I almost never play BJ in the hotel I'm staying at anyway, so I didn't care that the mirage was not the best.

Sigh, I used to be able to count down a deck in under 10 seconds, but now its taking me 20+ with mistakes about 1/3 of the time. Got some work to do. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I promise a trip report when I get back.

Best,

Zooey

(And if anyone is browsing this discussion and is interested for more info, check out www.bj21.com, it's the 2+2 for BJ. some boards are subscription only, $13 a quarter)

[zooey]

I played untroubled at the red chip games for almost 2 years. I started to feel "unwelcome" when I was going $25 to 2x$150. I was barred after 1 month on the black chip double deck game, $100 to 2x$500.

On the east coast 6 or 8 deck shoe, no cover is necessary. The only way to beat the came is shameless, blatently huge bet spreads and nimble feet. The single most important skill I learned was to back count multiple (3) tables at once. Like I said, I don't nothin' about Vegas. Yet. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Best,

Zooey

[zooey]

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...html?blackjack

[ChipWrecked]

It seemed to me that the ease of KO would tend to minimize mistakes, as opposed to keeping true count or side count of aces etc. with higher-level counts. That's why I used it. It's so easy I still do it when playing for comps/fun on six deck or any other non-pitch games.

Though as I recall, alot of guys felt Arnold Snyder's Zen7 was a superior unbalanced count.

I heard somewhere that the Binion's single deck rules weren't so good anymore, never followed up on it.

Don't forget the El Cortez and Western! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Homer]

It also might be worth it to order a copy of CBJN. It's $12 and lists recent BJ conditions for every casino in the US.

-- Homer

[charlie_t_jr]

Actually NOT "on any one hand"...you make your max bet when the count is high enough. If using the KO count it would be at your pivot point...+4....just remember to size your max bet to your bankroll, in regards to your risk tolerance. With $150 max...generic bankroll without knowing details of the game your playing...would be about 15K, depending once again on your risk tolerance.

Homer...you keep talking about bankrolls in poker and BJ, and expectation. I work off a 4K bankroll, which puts me in line for 5/10 or 6/12 Hold'em...all though I don't play at that high of a level, anyway, am I right in assuming a winning player at this level would expect $10-$15 per hour?

In BJ, with this roll I play Double Deck(DD) spreading 5-50, with expectation with good conditions about $18-$20 an hour, and Single deck(SD) spreading 10-50, expectation about $25 hr....now the variance with BJ will take your breath away...but a decent hourly rate can be had with small bank in BJ, if you can get a decent game... (calculations using Blackjack Risk Manager)

[Jeffage]

Just thought I'd let you know (bc I know you are generally an AC person) that Atlantic City (as far as I know) doesn't have any beatable blackjack games. Most are 8 deckers with bad penetration and if there are better ones they are prob high minimum (at least $50) and closely watched.

Jeff

[Jezebel]

One last point on card counting. The larger you can spread your betting limits the better edge you can get. However, in practice if you start varying your bets wildly you are going to draw attention to yourself. A dead give away is when you have worked you bets up to like 10X your base and the shoe ends and you start back to the minimum bet. The dealers are trained to call out anytime someone makes an unusal bet. Lets say you are playing the red chip table and go a couple of shoes betting the minimum waiting for a decent count. As soon as you up your bet the dealer calls out "Cheques Play" letting the pitboss know that he might want to take a look. Backcounting tables is almost impossible anymore since most tables with any significant stakes do not allow mid-shoe entry.

Many times they will not ask you to leave, they just start cutting the deck so deep that counting has no effect.

I think the best advice is to find on of those craggy old dealers that have been dealing blackjack since he was a kid. Tip him well and follow his lead. Most of those old guys count cards better than any pro, and do it to break up the monotony. Which brings up yet another point. No matter what system you use the casinos will eventually figure out that you are counting. Most even have software to track your betting pattern. Back in the old days it may have been worth counting cards, but unless you just enjoy the challenge then stick with poker.