Loose Game Strategy Adjustments

[Ray Zee]

almost evryone here except dynasty is getting it all wrong. you are so far out that it isnt even possible to start. reread hfap and understand what it says. dont take one line out of context and apply it to all situations.
i am really surprised at what i have just read in the above posts.

[Bama Boy]

Its obvious you are new here. And that itself is ok. But you will not win a pissing contest trying to tell everyone that Dynasty is full of crap, when he is consistently offering solid advice. Also being new, you probably have not read any of his posts to know that he does not complain about back door flushes beating his pocket A's, because he is not an idiot that applies preflop principles to post flop play.

[Al Mirpuri]

[paoneaj]

First of all my orginal post read;

Big pairs and off suited connectors have MINIMAL implied odds. Meaning they play well in heads up situations and poorly in multi way pots. Neverthelss if you are in a "MANIAC" game where everyone "stays till the end" and often re-raises, you'll want to play hands that have good implied odds and fold hands that do not. Hands w/ good implied odds are BIG suited connectors AKs, KQs, QJs these hands play well in multi-way pots. The whole purpose of raising when you have pocket pairs is to get people to fold because you want to be in heads up situations on the river. If they are going to stay in regardless of your power, you should consider folding. Hope this helps.

I was responding to part 4 of HammerinHanks question on what to do w/ big pairs in a "Wild Game". I did not assume he meant "pre-flop" since the question did not ask that. Therfore, I gave advice on what to do after flop w/ big pairs in the event a suited flop came. I agree that big pairs pre-flop, are AWESOME HANDS and have tremendous value. However, I just wanted to point out that in a loose/agressive game if you don't at least flop sets you should fold. The reasoning behind this is obvious to us but not a new player like HamerinHank. Then, enter Dynasty. He comes in and says nobody needs "help" like that. If you guys can't see the logic in my original post, than so be it and onto the next subject. Oh by the way nice way to treat a newbie after his first post, Dynasty.

[Jimbo]

"The whole purpose of raising when you have pocket pairs is to get people to fold because you want to be in heads up situations on the river."

I believe we have found your problem. The purpose of raising pocket pairs is to get more money in the pot from people whose hands are worse than yours, not to get them to fold. Newbie or not, poor advice is just that.

[paoneaj]

Okay, I agree that building up the pot against opponnents w/ poorer hands is an object of raising, but not the only one. You also do not want to be in multi way pots w/ pocket pairs since they do not have implied odds. Hence, another purpose to raising pocket pairs is to try and get opponents on the flush/straight draws out, so that they don't out draw you. This is a very dificult thing to do in a low limit, loose game, and therefore you should consider folding these hands in multi-way situations.

[paoneaj]

UNLESS you flop a set, than go for the full house draw.

[jnm2524]

I can understand how suited connectors can play well in loose aggressive games; you almost automatically have the pot odds to chase a straight draw or flush draw and when you hit nobody folds. Sounds good to me.

Here's what I simply cant understand: why would anyone devalue group I hands preflop? To paraphrase James Mcmanus (Positively Fifth Street) "...when I catch AA, Im looking to eviscerate someone." The same is true for KK, AK or even QQ. The point of the whole game is to get your money riding on a hand that has a distinct advantage - cap the betting, please. You just get money into my pot and allow me not to have to give up the power of my hand. No matter how many raisers and callers I have, my advantage is significant. The quote from HEFAP, I believe, is discussing hands that arent the group I big pairs or AK but pairs like TT and JJ. In this case, Sklansky and the other boys would have you raise rather than call because you cant afford overcards (i.e. Q trash, K trash) drawing out on you (in other words you want to thin the competition) or suited connectors seeing a flop and possibly a straight or flush draw. With the raise, you also have the possibility of winning the pot right there (which is a god send for you when you have TT or lower). Also, if you do happen to flop the set, you can torture your opponents if they hit their top pair or two pair. On the other hand, you cant just play these hands robotically to the river because there are too many dangers that could assail you at any moment; you must be aware of the players and the way theyre playing their hands. PAY ATTENTION! Facing alot of resistance and raising? Err on the side of caution. Youre not a good poker player if you never lay down the best hand.

Here's the point to this ramble: There can be no argument against the big dogs preflop, youre putting your money on a hand with a mathematical edge. Whoever calls is basically on the come no matter what (with the exception of AK vs smaller pair). That's good, punish them for it.

There are also great advantages to suited connectors in games where you have alot of callers and are willing to take the swings in your bankroll, deception being the most important: It's hard to put someone on T9 when the flop comes J8Q rainbow. It's time to start some torturing your opponents, especially the ones who refuse to fold top pair.

That's the way I see it anyway. Tell me if Ive got it all busted up and messed around so I can get straightened out.

[John Ho]

Do you even know what the odds are of flopping all one suit? Stop focusing so much of your attention on this.

That issue is irrelevant. You're debating something different from what all the knowledgable guys are debating.

The question is whether big pairs need implied odds. The answer is no. Do suited or unsuited connectors needs implied odds? Yes of course. So you must get in cheap because you rarely hit it. Pairs don't need to hit except for avoiding overcards when lots of players see the flop.

And yes you will lose often with aces in an 8 way pot and must be able to get away from it what there is raising. But when you win the pot, even without a set, you will win a big one. Volatility goes up but so does you expectation when lots of players are calling with limited outs.

[John Ho]

You're definetely a "glass is half empty" type of guy.

I am happy to let multiple opponents draw to the same straight or flush because when it hits I can probably see it and get away.

Otherwise they are calling with the worst hand and making me money. Situations like this are the absolute bread and butter of low limit holdem which I played for 2 years before moving on up. You bet the best hand all the way and god forgive your opponents if they catch up. If they don't then you take home the money, f*ck the head cheerleader, and all the other goodies that go with being the table stud.